Since the Pope died...

[zentraedi-shep.livejournal.com]

When Pope John Paul II. died last Saturday night, I couldn't help but think about this:

Is there religion in Harry Potter?

Well, of course they have Christmas, and they burry their people in graveyards, BUT what does a wizard or witch believe in? Are they Christian, Moslem, Hindu, or do they follow starnge Pagan paths or Voodoo or something like that?

What do you think?

Comments

[boley.livejournal.com]

I honestly cannot believe that the wizarding world would be christian, as christianity pretty much prohibits and condemns everything their world entails. In fact, I was quite confused the first time I read the first book and saw that they celebrated christmas. It seemed very oxymoron-ish to me.

If I had to stab in the dark, ignoring the fact that they did celebrate christmas, I would say it would probably be a more wiccan/pagan type religion that they would follow. I could see the wizarding world believing in some sort of god, but definitely a more natural? (I cant come up with a word to describe what Im thinking) God.

In fact, maybe it makes sense that they celebrate christmas, as December 25th used to be a pagan holiday that was transformed into christmas to make it easier on the pagans that were converted to christianity (or something like that).

Oooo..itll be interesting to see what else will be said on this subject, as Ive always wondered myself.

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

The magic in HP is more like traditional ceremonial magic, which has strong Christian influences, than Wiccan or most other neo-Pagan practices.

[medens-lupus.livejournal.com]

I think that they celebrate christmas mainly so that their students feel more at home. We know they make a bigger deal out of Halloween then Christmas. Being a Jew though, I wonder how Hannukkah is celebrated in the wizarding world.

[boley.livejournal.com]

How do the Jewish handle the supernatural? (witches and wizards and all that)?

Is it condemned like in christianity?

[ascendingflame.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad that JKR didn't make that an issue out of this as I find that very tedious.

I've always imagined that the kids at Hogwarts just had their own religions like children in any kid had. But they don't bring it in because there will probably be several religions with all the different ethical and cultural backgrounds of people in Britain. I really think wizards just like Muggles are Christians, Hindus, Moslems, Jews, Atheists and what have you. They just seem to be very tolerant about these things (they have their pureblood issues instead :D).

[chicarita.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. You saved me the trouble of having to comment. :)

[loved-gamgee.livejournal.com]

from what i can tell, there is no set religion. but seeing as wizards are suppose to be around us, some even born into Muggle families, why couldn't they be a certian religion? public schools are full of people from all different religious backgrounds, yet they all get out for Christmas break. although to be PC they call it a "winter break" here in Georgia.

i think it's a "to each his own" kinda thing in their world as much as it is in ours. which could be one reason they don't have a religious class of some sort.

i'm a Christian and don't believe that the sort of magic that is practiced in the "real world" is a good thing since the Bible says it's not...but HP is a make-believe world. anything goes there...so why not have different rules for the beliefs. since the kid doesn't have much choice about being a wizard/witch, especially ones born to Muggles.

(frozen)

[pfc-rat.livejournal.com]

I'm a Christian and don't believe that the sort of magic that is practiced in the "real world" is a good thing since the Bible says it's not

So you don't actually believe it yourself, but you're just saying that because someone else told you to?

[boley.livejournal.com]

But we are pretending that the wizarding world is real, just for the sake of arguement.

How would a christian (or any other religion for that matter, just using christianity as it is the most popular anglosaxon religion) family look upon one of their kids if they turned out to be a witch/wizard?

How would a child feel, in learning that he is a witch/wizard, about his religon, especially at such a young and impressionable age? I, personally, would not be able to follow something that condemns what I am....

(okay, I know its all make-belive, but I love religon, and anything to do with it, and this has always made me wonder...)

[rushofsilence.livejournal.com]

I have thought a lot about this before, but I never wanted to bring it up as it can irk people, and I hate live journal drama. It's almost as bad as high school drama.

Anyways, wouldn't you think that Jesus is just a wizard exposed? That's what I always thought, but then again, I'm partly agnostic, and part atheist >.<

Jessie ♥ Slytherin

[boley.livejournal.com]

Strattle the fence and just say agnostic. Then you cannot belive or deny. Makes my life easier. :-D (Im agnostic as well)

[pfc-rat.livejournal.com]

Christianity would probably be defunct, as most witches and wizards could do the same magic tricks that jesus is said to have performed: healing the sick, walking on water, water into wine etc.. In fact, in the HP world, it could be argued that jesus was in fact a wizard who perpetrated an enormous hoax on the planet.

[boley.livejournal.com]

Ooooo...Good point.

Just like Voldemort could go into the muggle world and claim he was the antichrist...as most muggles are oblivious to the magical world, theyd probably believe him (killing people with just green light, speaking to serpents, etc, etc...)

[awesomeness.livejournal.com]

ill go with drusilla_malfoy on that one. like anywhere else in the world, there's no set religion. people are free to choose what they want to believe in. although there will always be others against them, it's their own choice....as it should be. everyone having one special gift isn't going to turn them into a super cult or anything.

[beccastareyes]

Actually I was sent a link by one of my more devout friends on Christian mysticism that analyzed magic in the Bible and made a case that a lot of the perceived prohibitions against magic are actually against what HP fans would consider the Dark Arts (remember, back when the King James version was being translated, 'witch' meant 'someone who made a pact with the Devil for power' and neither 'Wiccan' (especially since Wiccan was invented in the 20th century) nor 'any magic user'). Which is perfectly consistent with HP wizarding philosophy.

I think religion in HP is a combiantion of whatever Muggle religion was common when wizards dropped out of Muggle contact in the Middle Ages, modified for magic and wizarding society (convincing the wizarding population that they should play homage to a Muggle in Rome as the highest authority on spiritual matters would probably not go over well, so I doubt Catholicism would catch on) and a good dose of Enlightenment-style thinking and humanism -- that most of the world can be understood via magic or applications thereof and that magic can make most anythign better if you work at it enough. So, I would imagine most British wizards are vaguly Christian, but highly secular (like most of northern Europe, or so I am told).

[zentraedi-shep.livejournal.com]

That really sounds good, since in medieval time the church used itself spells to bring the more pagan population of rural areas to the bible. For some time priests and monks were considered "white" magicians who were doing wonders of the heaven...

The power of the Pope as the one leader of the Catholic church was established quite late in the middle ages, so I think the wizards could be a sort of "pagan Christians", believing in God but still using the blessings, charms and spells of old...

[o0teh-goodehz0o.livejournal.com]

This is a short, merely questioning post. ^^; I was thinking, perhaps wizards and witches just decide on which religion to follow and sort of morph it to fit their standards. I mean, it would be kind of like doing it to fit society today. Barely anyone follows what some call the "old rules of the old world". I don't think many people marry their cousins or have more than one spouse these days.

Again, this is just a little thought I came up with, ot saying it's right or wrong. ^_^

[malaikah-roy.livejournal.com]

>_< not moslem, it's muslim. Sorry, but I'm just a spelling/grammar nazi...

Well, being a muslim, I can tell you that the Hogwarts people are NOT muslims. We believe there is magic, but we're told not to practice it. Some people do, but I'd rather not meddle in those things.

As for what they are, well, I think they might be agnostic or something.

See, the thing is I know lots of agnostic people, but they still celebrate christmas even though it's a christian holiday (as far as I know, I could be wrong). It's turned into more of a "everyone does it cept Jews, Muslims and the Kwanzaa-celebreaters" thing rather than a true christian holiday. I have Jewish friends whose families celebrate christmas, but not Hanukkah. They live in the US, and it's just ingrained in American culture, so that's why I think they do it. Half my friends are agnostic, yet they still celebrate christmas. My friend who is a huge athiest even celebrates it!

So I think it's just more of a "it's in our culture to celebrate christmas" thing than "it's in our religion to celebrate" thing.

Oh and I'd like to say I didn't mean to offend anyone here who celebrates christmas or is christian or whatever else I mentioned. I know what's it like (I'm a muslim, I think I have it the worst -_-) so I really didn't mean anything bad or deragatory (sp?).

[boley.livejournal.com]

My cop out for celebrating christmas while being agnostic, is that it was once a pagan celebration.

And that I just wanna keep the peace with my family. Its hard to say "no thanks, I dont want that new DVD player, because I choose not to believe in Jesus Christ". Because DVDs and Jesus go hand in hand....or something.

Im rambling. But I see your point. And its interesting to see a person who is Muslim's view. Thank you for sharing. :-D

[ledbylove.livejournal.com]

I think it largely depends. Remember that some of the students at Hogwarts come from Muggle families and as such could likely have been raised Christian.

Also, I do not think that being religious would necessarily preclude being magical and vice-versa. I think JKR specifically leaves religion out of the books, though, because that would just make them so controversial, but JKR herself has admitted to being a Christian and also admited that she doesn't think the kind of magic in HP really exists.

I could also see the idea of magic vs religion being a part of why the Muggle world and Wizarding world have to remain so seperate.

[loved-gamgee.livejournal.com]

exactly what i was saying...just you worded it a bit better.

discussions on the fly don't work well for me at times...lol

[pfc-rat.livejournal.com]

Considering the majority of all organized religions rely on "miracles" as an evidence of a higher being, I would be willing to bet that wizards have a good chuckle at religion in general.

Healing the sick? Madam Ponfrey can do it no problem
Parting the red sea? Pretty advanced magic, but not impossible.
Making lamp oil for one day last for 7? Piece of cake.
Fighting a 3 headed dog? Heck, some kids managed that in SS.

The majority of theology which has an "all-powerful" deity of some form has stories of magic tricks to prove that their god is teh best (which is even more ironic when you consider how nearly all these same religions decry the use of magic or witchcraft as evil). If you were capable of performing the exact same tricks that your purpoted deity did to prove their divinity, would you be likely to believe in them?

[ciara-belle.livejournal.com]

Magic tricks, miracles, all in the semantics, isn't it?

I think you're oversimplifying religion just a tad. Yes, the fact that Jesus performed miracles was certainly one reason that people believed in him, but I like to think there was something more to it. Religion also has a great power to comfort those who truly believe.

Also, let's not forget Jesus' biggest "magic trick", the Resurrection. I know Voldemort has shown that it is possible for wizards to stay alive or bring themselves pretty much back from the dead, but I think JKR made it clear that it's not perfect and/or it comes with a significant price. It's a little different in the Bible.

Christianity is based on faith, not proof, scientific or otherwise. As Jesus says in the Gospel "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe."

I really don't want to have a big fight about this, because any discussion of religion always seems to turn wanky. But you're giving me the vibe (and please forgive me if I'm mistaken) that I get from a lot of people; namely that truly devout Christians are all brainwashed, anti-science morons. Having people think that about me bugs me more than anything else.

[hackergroupie.livejournal.com]

I think that there are all religions represented in the Wizarding community. You have to consider that many witches/wizards are muggleborn or half bloods at the very least. Whether or not the pureblood families have a separate religion, we don't know. *shrug*

~HG, Slytherin Prima Donna

[ciara-belle.livejournal.com]

I agree with our wonderful prefect. ;D

I definitely think it depends on whether the student is Muggle-born and/or half-blood or pure-blooded. Somehow I doubt the pureblooded families are religious in a Muggle sense (in that they practice a religion like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc). I read one fic once in which Snape was a devoted Christian (he might even have been Catholic) and could even quote the Bible. In Aramaic. Somehow, I doubt that's the kind of thing Snape would do. He just doesn't strike me as the religious type.

I don't even know if they'd be pagan or Wiccan, because I think JKR just left all religion out of the books, aside from celebrations like Christmas. Let's face it, Christmas has become pretty secularized in this day and age, and I don't think most witches and wizards are celebrating it in the religious sense as much as the "ooh, we get presents" sense.

But as for Muggle born students (or even students with one Muggle parent, if that parent is really religious), I definitely could see them being raised as Christians or Jews or Muslims or what have you. For some families, I doubt that would even be a problem when the kid gets their Hogwarts letter. All depends on how liberal and open-minded the family is. I think it's an interesting question to consider.

[zentraedi-shep.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on that... I think it's very interesting, how much of an impact religion still has on us although we have no use of it in our working world (i.e. in our jobs, schools, etc.)... Perhaps it's just that human beings need something to believe in, and since wizards and witches have their magic to believe in, religion is not that much of a topic for them...

[pureblood-queen.livejournal.com]

Some people say It depends on bloodlines. Like if you are pureblood you are probably raised in a Pagan religion, but if your muggleborn or half-blood you are probably raised in a Christian religion. How do you explain the fact the Weasleys celebrate x-mas? Are they Christians? Or are they just doing it because '*squee* MUGGLES DO IT!'. We don't know. But the question was 'What religion does a witch or wizard believe in?'. My opinion is that it could be that JK Rowling is just reflecting her own religion in her work, but then if you think about it, other than x-mas she doesn't mention religion at all. We don't have any information on the subject, heck they could have there very own religion that isn't a religion. Maybe they [purebloods] just have they just have traditions they pass down and muggleborns/halfbloods just learn to live with.

[leucocrystal]

While I have a LOT of issues with Christianity (and let's face it -- organized religion in general), but I still really enjoyed this book. If you're curious about religion in HP, written by someone who realizes the books are not just for children (*gasp!*), check it out. :)

[caffienerain.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite sure on the religious topic in Harry Potter. True, they do have holidays such as Christmas, but you never really hear about them going to church or anything. Even when Harry was living with the Dursleys, you never really heard of that. I think maybe they do follow some pagan paths, or maybe even Wiccan.

[eternaleclipse.livejournal.com]

I think that religions in Harry Potter are the same as what we see in our day and age: diversity. I would think that people of different backgrounds follow their own beliefs or what they've been raised to believe, although I do think it's possible that wizards and witches could be Pagans because paganism is a religion that sort of focuses on advancement of self. I would imagine that if you can make things happen, like kill people, or transform oneself, it would be hard to believe in a god of any kind.

[eljuno.livejournal.com]

I'd theorise there's at least one Jew there, since the Ravenclaw prefect in Book 6 is named 'Anthony Goldstein'...

But seriously, I think it's probably wrong-headed to say that there's some monolithic 'Wizard Religion'. Muggleborns and Halfbloods, of course, probably have religions from having been raised in them, but Purebloods...

I don't think that all or most or whatever Purebloods are 'Pagan', for a lot of reasons (what we currently consider 'Paganism' or Neopaganism is, generally, 50-80 years old, and despite my usual mental sorting of Great British Occultists, made by muggles). There's not enough canon evidence to say much of anything, really, but I'd theorise we're looking at some combination of the following in pureblood families.

1. No religion as we would understand it (it IS a different culture, after all)
2. Minor cultus somehow related to Merlin or other great wizards, not necessarily seen as divine, but as objects of reverence (this is mostly off of the number of swears which centre on Merlin that are used in canon) Possibly in either an early Christian or light Pagan framework (and by Pagan I mean either Celtic or Anglo-Saxon Gods, not Neopaganism)
3. Earlier forms of Christianity (specifically, likely either Catholicism or the Celtic Church) mutated into specifically 'wizard' forms by the culture that they're under.
4. POSSIBLY a minor and mostly-lost mutated Roman worship.

I don't think any of them would be near what we'd be seeing in the muggle world (in case you couldn't tell from my constant repitition of the word 'mutated'). I also think that a major question would be related to when the family 'became pure'. If you assume that every Pureblood family was, at one point, NOT pure (which isn't THAT out there an assumption, I think) or, in other words, that the earliest head of most if not all Pureblood families was Muggleborn, and his or her culture informed the family that followed him or her, then it's pretty obvious that a family that 'Turned Pure' back when Britain was Pagan/before the Roman invasion would likely be 'shaped' differently than a family which came over with the Roman invasion than a family which 'turned Pure' out of British Christian stock, not to mention the question of intermarriage...

...I don't think I need to put in my House at this point, really...

-El Juno, Ravenclaw