Term XIV Debate for May

[ex-absolute.livejournal.com]

Term 14 Debate: May Hello! Welcome to the first debate of Term 14. I’m Samantha, your debate leader (and I am super excited). Thank you for voting for me if you did. And whoever ran against me, I want to know who you are so I can steal your ideas. :D For my first debate, I’m using one from my application. Good luck. Have fun. Debate hard. TOPIC: The Romance of Harry Potter: So there’s not a whole lot of it, correct? Well, let’s analyze what’s there, and what these romances say about romance in general, and also why they exist in the series. Harry/Ginny, for example; why did JKR decide to include this little romance? Severus/Lily; this tragedy held some symbolism, right? Or was it simply to humanize the grump that is Severus Snape? (All CANON pairings are allowed [this will include Albus/Gellert]. However, I will not accept Sirius/Remus, Draco/Harry, or any other pairings that are not expressly designated in the series as legitimate couples, sorry!) Sides: There will be no set sides for this debate. Go crazy. General Rules and Conduct: • All replies to the debate should be posted as a comment to THIS post. • Your comment must be ON-TOPIC to count for points. • All comments must be a minimum of 3 sentences long in order to receive points. • If the debate calls for you to take a certain side, you must adhere to that side to receive points. • If any drama arises, do NOT respond. Please contact me immediately. If need be, I will freeze comments. Please don’t make me do this. It makes me sad. So try and be on your best behaviour. • Please sign ALL comments with your name and your house to receive points. Schedule: Debate starts now May 13 [4:50 PM (GMT+10)] and the debate will end on May 20 at 4:50 PM (GMT+10). Points: Your first comment will reward you with 10 points/5 knuts. Any and all on-topic comments made afterwards will reward you with 2 points/1 knut apiece. As for the Top Debater, they will receive an extra 30 points/15 knuts as a extra super snazzy and special reward. Contact/Suggestions: If drama arises and I am not around to see it, please let me know. You can contact me through PM and/or a comment to my personal journal. I am also available through e-mail (samantha_fictitious [AT] y7mail [DOT] com). If you have a suggestion for the next debate, feel free to drop me a line as well. I am open to suggestions. After all, I want you to participate, right? ♥ Samantha|Slytherin|Debate Leader

GUYS. SIGN WITH YOUR NAME/HOUSE OR I CAN'T GIVE POINTS. D:

Comments

[rhye.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this is on-topic, but I'm curious about your definition of canon. There's, strictly-speaking, no canon proof of Grindledore, is there? So ti is not "expressly designated in the series as a legitimate couple" unless you read pretty far between the lines, especially prior to JKR's revelation about Dumbledore's sexual orientation.

All of that aside, I do think there are quite a few romantic pairings in HP and that many of them wind together. In the way that Harry/Ginny is sort of a "redo" of James/Lily, a lot of pairings get a second chance in some form. Harry/Ginny is really the culmination of an aborted James/Lily in some ways-- Harry finally gets the family he's always wanted but the vision in the Mirror of Erised might as well be he and Ginny as much as it is Lily and James.

I honestly want to say more here, but by allowing Gellart/Albus and disallowing other pairings, you've cut off my argument at its legs. James/Lily-> Harry/Ginny is certainly not the only pairing to get a new incarnation and 'redo', I think. (And if I'm wrong, then the similarities and coincidences are too high for my comfort.)

As for Lily/Snape, I think it was meant to humanize Snape, and for those of us who think it's more creepy than endearing, it rather failed.

Jess//Gryffindor

[ex-absolute.livejournal.com]

I expected to get hell over not allowing certain pairings.

It was my decision to designate them as canon. I am willing to dispute with you over this particular claim outside of the debate. However, my judgment still stands.

If you are upset with this decision, I'm sorry. Please try and enjoy the rest of the debate!

Samantha|Debate Leader

[omfgerbear.livejournal.com]

Dearest Samantha, as early as now, I'd like to wish you the best of luck. Debates are horrible, horrible creatures when left untamed for even just a few hours. ♥

Anyway, here's what I can say about the topic itself: First of all, the Harry Potter series (especially in the first half) is more geared toward children. Children find romance and kissing icky, so, of course, there was none of that in the earlier books. Except maybe for Percy Weasley and Penelope Clearwater. As the series progressed, JKR added more romantic stuff to the books, just like how the main characters grew in age and entered puberty, etc. Romance (among and with the main characters) in the HP books is, in short, mirrored by the characters' development.

Sorry, my thoughts are scrambled at the moment.

Gerry//Ravenclaw

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

And Ginny totally had the child's "ew" reaction to Penelope/Percy. Romance is from afar between older people and not really thought on. I really like how you explained it. And I think the shipping started in fandom first because it was more than a year between each book. And so the fans got to the age of rabid shipping before the books were reflecting a lot of romance. And thus the problems started!

-Silyara, Slytherin

[amasaglajax.livejournal.com]

A ship debate? A canon ship debate? This does sort of seem like dangerous territory for so infamous a fandom as Harry Potter, but hell's bells, let's go with it! If only I could remember my canon well enough.

I do appreciate that JKR had her characters date around before just magically finding their twu rabus. Ginny dated quite a few boys, Harry dated Cho, Ron dated Lavender, Hermione dated Krum -- they didn't all end up in their final alignments on the first go. Of those, only Hermione and Viktor seemed to work as a reasonable pairing. Cho was dealing with her own very serious grief and trauma over Cedric, but the way JKR wrote it and because of Harry's presence as the narrator, all that resulted in was a lot of bewildering B-B-B-BUT BAWWWWWW moments. Ron/Lavender though. There is a romance to last the ages. LMAO. That was the most realistic portrayal of a teenage "romance" I've ever seen.

I remember reading a very interesting essay in an indie magazine I was processing at work (I was processing magazines for the Serials department at my college library). It basically argued that the matchy-matchy ending and epilogue of the seventh book sapped the narrative of a certain queer energy that it had hitherto retained due to things like Harry's outsider position as a Muggle-raised boy entering the Wizarding world, etc. I can't remember the article's argument very well (I really do have serious memory problems ;;), but I agree that I find the need for all the characters to end up prettily matchy-matched is one I find annoying, not only in Harry Potter, but in a lot of fantasy fiction.

Amasa//Slytherin

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

I agree that I like that the entire trio dated "around" or at least someone else before the person they ended up with. Sure, it isn't the most realistic, in regards that most people I know had at least one serious relationship before the life-long one. And all the trio and Ginny had were not really serious. Ginny never seems to have been seriously going out with any of the boys, maybe Dean, but it isn't really clear (hard to read through 'chest monster' xD). Ron/Lavender...you summed it up well. Harry/Cho had tons of issues. Hermone/Viktor could have gone on longer about a summer or so, but there is no implication that it did. So I still do find that awfully frustrating, but it is a novel - and one not entirely on romance, so oh well.

In regards to Harry losing his outsider status - he was nearing forty. I would hope he had lost it!

-Silyara, Slytherin

[drakie-cakie.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I believe (crazy fanboying aside) that Harry was paired with Ginny at the last minute because he needed to marry someone and have a happy ending. Like, this was Jo's goal, and just sort of threw it together at the last second. And I totally giggled at the omgobvious Oedipus complex thing. Really, when I was reading the books, when Harry started having 'romantic' thoughts about her, I was just sort of like, "...Well, that was random." Same with Tonks/Remus. It seems like it was pulled out of thin air.

Grindledore FTW. I think Ginny/Neville in the fourth book was adorable. And I'm totally NOT going to mention my hardcore Harry/Draco shipping. Nope, not even once.

Draconis//Slytherin

[amasaglajax.livejournal.com]

I say the next debate be all about Your Personal Ship Manifesto. Because that won't be wanky. lmfao. But I'd actually be interested in reading everyone's thoughts for why they shipped what they ship!

Um, er, anyway. I don't think that Harry was paired with Ginny at the last minute-- JKR sets it up from Ginny's entrance into the series, basically, that Harry's the boy of Ginny's dreams. I just don't buy the progression of the relationship, or the fact that Harry just suddenly notices her, and omfg, I do not like the whole "THERE'S A MONSTER IN MY CHEST" conceit JKR uses to express Harry's heaving, troublesome emotions. All I could think of was Cthulhu, or the Giant Squid, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, bursting out of Harry's heroic barrel chest all slick, sexy, and ready for lovin'. Maybe I watch too many grotesque Japanese exports. D:

I agree with you on Tonks/Remus as well. JKR showed us the build-up of the after-effects (Remus looking grayer and more weary, Tonks being worn-down and upset). Not the build-up of the relationship, not what attracted them to each other, not any of that, in the slightest. Granted, being in Harry's POV is restricting, but JKR detaches herself from his POV for important plot moments. I guess Remus's little ship was not an important enough plot moment. :c

Amasa//Slytherin

[stamieebabess.livejournal.com]

yeah i agree with dracovontrapp. JK shouldve built up on the romances, and it seems that harry and ginny were put together just for the sake of a "happy ending". i was honestly hoping for harry/hermione, but ron and hermiones relationship was bulit up from the very beginning, so it was sort of expected.

Stamie//Gryffindor

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

Romances certainly are not JKR's strongest suit, but I think the two major ones were built up. I explained Harry/Ginny above, and while the reason could be "happy ending" - JKR did build it. But I think she may be a Harry/Ginny shipper from the get go. xD And I did like the build up for Ron/Hermione.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[malfoymercy.livejournal.com]

I think its kind of a good thing that you only allow canon pairings. Else, you just might go a bit crazy with the amount of pairings there are out there.

As for the discussion...I think that the books cover several genres really. I mean it is essentially a story of love. The love of a mother for a child, the love of a godfather for a godson, the love of friends who are willing to risk all, etc... I think that JKR perhaps intentionally did not play up the romance of characters as much as she could have for this very reason.

Granted, there are love stories, i.e..the mess between Ron, Hermione, and Lavender, the whole Harry/Cho fiasco and eventually the ultimate Harry/Ginny. Not to mention the tragedy that is Remus/Tonks. However, I don't think that the story is in any way intentionally focused on the love/romance of characters. Mayhaps as a subplot that has a deeper meaning.

For instance, how in the very beginning an act of love saves Harry's life where as he pretty much grows up with a lack of love. And in the end he has all the love he could ever want. The lack of love included in the series perhaps expresses just how much the story is about love by showing the lack of it.

Basically, the notion of less is more or something.

Becky // Slytherin

[classical-wolf.livejournal.com]

I agree with what you've said here, that this is a story of love. I see how love is a main theme throughout and it doesn't have to be romance. I think the story is stronger because while there is love, it's so much more than romantic love. I liked how there are so many different kinds of love and we see how the characters handle that. I also agree with your thoughts on the beginning and the end, how Harry starts with no love and ends up with so much. I think all the love he ends up with is based on the friends, companions, and trials he's faced, bringing everything together.

Rebecca//Hufflepuff

[munanna.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit fond of the HP romance, although I've never been particularly fond of the pairings. We were never shown a reason in the books why Lily would develop feelings for James, for example, only a vague "Well, he changed..."-notion. And I've always got a weird oidipus-vibe from the similarity between James/Lily and Harry/Ginny. Which incidentally is even more weird in the movies, since Lily in the Mirror of Erised looks eerily alike movie-Ginny.

Well, basically, there's a reason why I ship non-canon pairings. XD

To me Grindledore is canon, simply because Rowling told us so. Nevermind that she didn't include it obviously in the books, it was still a golden tidbit afterwards. :3

Lova//Slytherin

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

The books really don't have the most romance in them, for the pairings shown/told about or anything. So it makes sense fandom explores them, canon or not.

And I don't get why certain things JKR says are more canon than others - ie it's universally accepted that Tonks is a Hufflepuff, Myrtle a Ravenclaw but Grindeldore is not. Selective acceptance doesn't really make much sense to me.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[mmailliw.livejournal.com]

I was VERY disappointed with the way JKR handled the Snilly (Snape/Lily) pairing.

Imagine if you had introduced someone, at the age of nine, to the most amazing secret club in the world, and showed her exactly how everything worked.

Once you finally got to go there with her, imagine that she soon became popular and were then only willing to associate with you in secret (even though she claimed to be your best friend). Imagine also that you were constantly bullied by more popular, better-looking (but much stupider) boys who ganged up on you at a 3-1 ratio and no one was ever willing to defend you.

Then, suppose that after five years of bullying, you had enough, snapped and said ONE BAD WORD WHILE YOU WERE IN THE MIDST OF BEING TORTURED. After that ONE WORD, she was never willing to speak to or see you again, no matter how much you apologized for an occasional lapse of judgment.

To make matters worse, imagine that she then married THE RINGLEADER OF THE GROUP THAT HAD CONSTANTLY BEEN BULLYING YOU.

Would you willingly devote the rest of your life to the memory of that girl, maintaining a position which caused you to be hated and mistrusted by nearly everyone while having no close friends? I loved the whole 'double identity' nature of Snape (in fact, I mentioned that I identified with this role on my HiH application), but I HATE the fact that The Prince's Tale reduced Snape to a pathetic creature whose whole purpose in living was a girl so callous as to instantly hate him for losing his temper once while being tortured!

William//Slytherin

[arobynsung]

I absolutely agree with you on Rowling's handling of the pairing. It certainly could have gone better. I've never quite bought that Lily would marry the guy who teased her best friend (former or not) for most of his life.

As for Snape's purpose being devalued, maybe she's a romantic at heart? *snerk*

But do you think that she wanted to present a different path? What if Lily (who regardless of her supposed intelligence chose James anyway, wtf?) had gone with Snape and all that.

Robyn//Claw

[arobynsung]

A Harry Potter shippers' debate...
Uh oh.
*dives in*

Harry/Ginny: Trying my hardest to ignore that this pairing freaks me OUT, I think Ms. Rowling wanted to give Harry the happily ever after he wished for. Ginny belonged to the people he considered family, was basically a reincarnation of his mother figures (Molly & Lily) and was the safest, easiest choice. After going through what Harry did, I think I'd want safe and easy.

Ron/Hermione: Well I suppose it eliminates the possibility of Harry ending up with Hermione for one, then there's the straight up humor that comes from the pairing--the idea of opposites attracting is tried and true.

Severus/Lily: She might have introduced this pairing to present a "what-if" and to validate Severus' motives. What if Severus hadn't called her a mudblood in his worst memory? What if they'd ended up together? As for validating Severus' motives it cements his reasons for protecting Harry past a life debt to an enemy.

ROBYN//CLAW//SHIPS MOST NON-CANON PAIRINGS :D

What do you mean Remus/Sirius isn't canon? LOL

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

If we accept that the mirror or erised is completely right, Harry's choice of instantly going for family and love and warmth and comfort as soon as he could without thinking it'd get the girl killed completely makes sense. I do think the ship was somewhat developed in its own right though.

Ron/Hermione does follow a very tried and true principle. And they had been through a lot together with the dynamic of an old married couple for bickering. I've seen a lot of relationships start that kind of way.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[musikurt.livejournal.com]

To be perfectly honest, I have a hard time really thinking about romance as at all being a part of the Harry Potter books. None of the pairings provided by JKR were really developed in any sort of real way, so it's difficult to have a true sense of them or why they exist. I do understand that the focus of the books was on Harry's plight, but I can't help feeling that most of the romantic pairings provided and alluded to seem solely in place out of necessity or convenience.

(I apologize in advance to any 'shippers of the following...while my intention is not to rag on any of these pairings, I'm simply hoping to explain why I think they were included and how in some ways it's all predictable, transparent, or doesn't make any sense at all.)

Harry/Cho in OotP, to me, was simply a distraction for Harry...one of many that were in that book...so that he wouldn't have time to focus on Voldemort and put things together. I think it was also a mechanism for us to see healing over the death of Cedric and some of Harry's brooding over thinking it was his fault.

Hermione/Ron: convenience. Neither of them had to branch out or develop any real relationships outside of the trio, and let's face it, they really didn't have the time or the chance. Since we get to know the trio so well, it would be weird (I think especially as someone else pointed out with these books initially being primarily directed at children) to reach the epilogue and hear that Hermione ran off after the seventh book and married a guy named Ernest Trembull or someone else we had never heard of before. By pairing them together we get to "awww" that they found love out of friendship and get to know that the trio is still connected.

Harry/Ginny: pretty much just as convenient. Harry could have just as easily gone with Hermione, but then we'd have to find someone else for Ron and let's face it, Ron and Luna doesn't have the same impact as Ron and Hermione. We don't see any development of this relationship and how many times does Harry spurn Ginny's advances, yet she still keeps coming back. To me, it's not very romantic that they ended up together.

Draco/Astoria: Draco can't be with a character we know all too well because we would be thinking "why in the world would she ever?" Also, I do think JKR got it right here because I couldn't see any character that had already been introduced believably being the one that Draco ends up with.

Tonks/Remus: I did seem some real chemistry here, but we didn't get much in terms of the development and in some ways it came out of nowhere. While I think there was a lot of potential in this pairing, I can't help but wonder if it was done merely to provide us with the tragic story of Teddy.

Curtis//Ravenclaw

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

Yea, one of the issues of unlikelihood in the books is how everything culminates at the end of each school year like clockwork. It's like Harry could start waking up and go "Oh it's May, time for exams and Voldie." And Harry/Cho does help with the timing for that. Got to have something taking up time. And hey, at least he didn't marry his first kiss! That seems to happen a lot in children's fantasy series.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[nathaniel-hp.livejournal.com]

Canon pairings ... yes, always good for a debate. :)

Canon pairing are okay, as long as I can play with my non-canon ones, but there are a few elements of how romance was handled in the series that resulting in me frowning in disbelief (or worse).

1. Remus/Tonks: How out of the blue was that? I mean, yes, so maybe Harry didn't realise what was going on, but I can't help but feel that Remus was forced into that relationship. After all, he still wanted to leave after he was married and his wife pregnant.

2. Hogwarts sweethearts ending up happily married: Okay, so maybe I'm not the most romantic person on earth, but seriously, how many people from your highschool are married to the person they went out with in school? I mean it's nice and sweet and all. It was also an easy way of providing closure at the end of DH.

3. Snape/Lily: what William said.

4. It might just be me as I am overly sensitive when it comes to such matters, but I can't help but notice the traditional, heteronormative way in which romance, for the most part, is portrayed in the series.

Nathan - Slytherin

[munanna.livejournal.com]

It might just be me as I am overly sensitive when it comes to such matters, but I can't help but notice the traditional, heteronormative way in which romance, for the most part, is portrayed in the series.

It's not just you. According to (Swedish) statistics, one in six in a school class is not heterosexual, but does it ever show in Harry Potter (or any kind of books where the setting is a school)? No. I'm not saying that Swedish statistics have to have to be applied to Hogwarts, but I see no reason that it would be much different, or that every person would be straight. It would have been nice if Rowling would have included at least one non-het couple in the series (while it was ongoing), seeing as she had more than enough power to do so. I think it might have had a positive impact on prejudice, but that's another story altogether... ;)

To sum up, it's not just you.

Lova//Slytherin

[pretty-liquor.livejournal.com]

My main concern over JK Rowlings framing of most of the romantic relationships is either that they are too flippant, or carry a great burden of plot/significance.

I think the pairings that work best for me are the older and established pairings: Arthur/Molly, Narcissa/Lucius. Particularly the latter as it works in a really subtle way to disprove the popular notion that up until Deathly Hallows that the Slytherins Malfoys were incapable of loving one another in a warm way, that they were cold fish in basically a sham of a marriage.
The Weasleys, equally, are a lovely and realistic portrait of a couple who've been together quite some time, and been through a lot.

I know the failure/stop and start nature of many of the other relationships: Harry/Ginny. Ron/Lavender, Ron/Hermione early on are just childhood fodder. We've all been there and done that, or had friend who has.

However, Remus/Tonks. This ship seems quite ridiculous to me, and I'm really not fond of the character development it brings to Remus. It all seems to be about birthing the mini-werewolf, and Voldemort having something to wind Bella up about. I don't see the point in it, and I don't think it works as a legit relationship either.

Harry/Ginny is the inevitable big happy ending, and I agree with planetgal471 who said that it was the culmination of the James/Lily situation. Harry had to get the family he always wanted, that was his happy ending. Ron/Hermione is just an extension of that - he's got a wide family, everyone's keep together.

I'm not keen on big romance tales, but I don't mind them when they are a natural part of the plot. I just hate it when romance is fudged together to give logic to a situation, especially if it didn't need to be there in the first place (Snape).

Sam//Slytherin
Edited about a thousands times due to me just waking up and having a first language of 'grunt'.

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

Lucius/Narcissa is one of my favorite ships! We hardly get to see anything about them, and it's always from Harry's biased pov, but it's still so incredible. And the love they have for Draco - RUNNING wandless through the battle shouting - is so amazing. <3 <3 <3

I do think JKR is better with established relationships/loves than developing them, that's for sure.

-Silyara, Slytherin.

[mistress-orange.livejournal.com]

Well I think that it is important to remember that these romances happened during a war. People make strange choices during war. And it wasn't just some vague idea that there was a war overseas that a distant cousin is fighting it. It was a threat that loomed over their heads. Sure, Harry/ Ginny appeared out of thin air, but I think it makes some kind of sense.

I just think that maybe when considering the characters' choices, something like the threat of war should be taken into account.

Even the previous generation had to deal with that threat. Maybe Lily thought that she could be with James when he 'changed' because she needed to know that even though there were rough times ahead, a bully like James could still change and act like a normal human being.

My thoughts are a bit jumbled so this might not make any sense ;)

Shannen//Slytherin

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

I love that you mentioned war and it getting taken into account. Wars and the aftermath can mess with anyone's head, not to mention so many people want someone - a comfort - and well, not everyone is AROUND. It's WAR. Random-y stuff can happen.

With James, I think the fact that he stubbornly and relentlessly fought on the side Lily agreed with probably helped. Pureblood boy with no personal investment (other than the wooing of her for a long time, but that had been having NO success) in it, who could have easily just sat back, standing up and saying no. Given that using only what we've been seen explicitly in canon and not subtext, I could see Remus being gun shy (even if Lily liked him), even if he was more her type in the quiet non-bully way. And I think James, assuming some changes, was more her type than Peter or Sirius. And at four, there's most the boys in her year and house.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[beeinmybonnet.livejournal.com]

Oh, this sounds interesting. Maybe I can add my two cents for once? #&9829;

I should probably mention that I still haven't read the entirety of HBP or DH, which does disqualify me in some ways, I suppose. It's just that I read Harry Potter because I'm in love with the Marauders, and I feel that the last two books mostly screw my OTP them over, so I haven't bothered yet. But that's neither here nor there.

I think I'm going to focus on romance in general, so here goes:
Like sanggre_habagat mentioned, there probably isn't much romance in the beginning of the series because Harry is just an ickle boy of 11. Still, I feel that the series are a little too "chaste" overall, but that's probably because JKR is a woman and British. Also, the series focus on the plot rather than Harry's sexual discoveries, so. *shrug* What still annoys me no end is how JKR handles the couples. Apart from Dumbledore/Grindelwald, there are only heterosexual pairings. Now, I understand that it would be odd if Hogwarts turned into a gay club for minors, but the subject isn't even raised. Was it really all that hush-hush in the '90s?
And what's with JKR's obesession with ~*~TWU WUV~*~ and highschool sweethearts? Isn't she divorced? James/Lily is tragic and quite cute -- before everything went to hell, that is -- and I can buy that they married each other because they were dead by their 22nd birthday anyway. If they had lived, I don't know if they'd still be married or divorced.
Snape/Lily makes me frown a little. While his stalker-crush is both cute and creepy at the same time, being in love with the same girl for 11 years seems like a bit of a stretch. And to still be in love with her, even after she's dead, for another 17 years? I'm sorry, JKR, but I can't buy that. I can buy Snape remembering her fondly and blaming himself for her death, but for goodness' sake, doesn't he have a life at all? Apparently not.
Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione makes me scratch my neck in awkward confusion. Not only is it teensy bit incestious, imho, (have you noticed that by the end of the series, everyone is married to a Weasley or two? Are there no other wizards and witches in England? Back to that in a minute.) but I also feel little confused that Harry gets it on with his best friend's little sister. Don't go there Harry, this is going to be ugly.
And then we have The Epilogue. Gods, I tense up just thinking about it. Here we have all the characters we know and love (that survived the war, that is), 20 years later, at Platform 9 3/4, and everybody's married with 2.5 sprogs. What. The. Hell? We have an epidemic of "happily married" highschool sweethearts, heaps of annoying ankle-biters, and it's so sugary perfect I want to gag. There isn't even a couple that is childless, or just live together. Nobody's single, and ~*~of course~*~ no one lives in a same-sex relationship. What JKR is telling us here is that happiness is getting married to your first crush and produce a steady stream of spawn, otherwise you aren't fulfilling your duty as a woman/man.
I'm not even going to get started on Remus/Tonks. Two perfectly wonderful characters, both subjected to utter character assasination.

... I got a bit aggressive there, didn't I? *facepalm* I'm sorry; The Epilogue is quite a bit of a sore spot of mine. The whole feeling of "YOU HAVE TO BE NORMAL OR ELSE." just gives me the shivers. It's unrealistic, it's so ~*~romantic~*~ it's getting creepy and I'm just not comfortable with it. As a finishing note, I'd like to point out that the series' only non-heterosexual ship (Dumbledore/Grindelwald) is also the only pairing that isn't portrayed as Twu Wuv. Take that as you like.


Anna||Ravenclaw

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

I cannot say anything really on the British aspect, but I disagree that JKR writes "chaste" books because she is a woman. Women have written books with no romance to flat out erotica. It has to do with who she - as an individual, a person - is, not "a woman." After all, how much R/NC-17 fanfic is there written by women?

In regards to the book not having enough on relationships, the book wasn't really one focused on relationships, plotwise. So generally, they came in when it mattered to the plot. Sure there was probably a lot more dating going on, probably was a lot she wasn't mentioning, but there's no reason for irrelevant references to things - romantic or not. And JKR seems to have found most romance irrelevant. You can disagree about its relevance, but that's what's there.

Given that relationships are only there if relevant, most of them older than teenagers are going to be heterosexual because - hey - we need parents of the kids. Molly/Arthur, Lucius/Narcissa, James/Lily, Frank/Alice, etc - all there so they could pop out those kids and raise them. All kids have parents, and genetically, those parents need to be of opposite genders. I don't really recall adoption by homosexuals being a big thing in the 90's.

Snape/Lily may not be believable to you, but it's about obsession, it's stalkery, and at least it gets away from the happy high school sweetheart marriages with 2.5 kids. Yea? And it's there - even if I think it were not the best handled - because it is plot!relevant.

Grindeldore happened because it was plot relevant. Dumbledore had been toting all that 'love conquers all' line for a long time. And that ship proves it. After all, he defeated Gellert in a DUEL when Gellert had a wand you CANNOT defeat in a duel with wands. Hrm hrm. Love defeated the last dark wizard, and in a different way, love defeats one again. It fits JKRs "love love love" line. And I think she said somewhere, the relationship wasn't about gay or straight but love. That's what her "true love" relationships she seems obsessed with comes from.

I also don't think Grindeldore is portrayed as not true love, but that's going to get its own in depth comment, so I'll simply address it there.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[chewyyyyyy.livejournal.com]

I had to agree with dracovontrapp on JK Rowling's way of pairing characters up. I mean, some of these pairings are really random, and weird... and awkward. Most of them don't make sense anyway.

For example, Tonks//Remus. Tonks is like Remus' junior and Remus was actually her uncle's friend, who died recently. I had this odd feeling that Tonks fall for Remus because he brought back memories of Sirius. Also, not much elaboration or hints on their relationship were given. It was... rushed. Yes, extremely rushed. It was like simply pulling two singles together, and tada, a blissful couple, not that I say so.

Bill//Fleur. I never really know how they got together. All of a sudden, Fleur resurfaces and got together with Bill. Very sudden. Not much information on how they met, where, what, when it all happened. Like Jo just wanted to pull Fleur into the Weasley family with someone suitable, like Bill.

Harry//Ginny. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Harry didn't really think much of Ginny when he first saw her. How, I really wanted to know, did he fall for her? A moment of realisation? Under the influence of a love potion? Frankly, I don't think much of this pairing. I think Jo just wanted Harry to marry a Weasley, cause the Weasleys are like a family to him, and that he should marry Ginny as if completing a circle or cycle. The Weasleys, in my opinion, represents happiness and happy endings.

Hermione//Ron. Is there a need? Why can't Hermione be with Draco, and Ron and Lavender? It seems to me that Jo just wanted everyone to be connected to one another one way or another. Example, marriage. Is there a need for best friends to end up happily married? Why can't they be left to led their own lives? I can imagine the trio meeting up often during lunch, catching up, and you have to admit, that is far better than marrying their best friends.

Yiting//Hufflepuff//Ships Dramione

Bill/Fleur

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

Given how little contact Bill and Fleur combined generally have with Harry (Fleur especially before dating/marrying Bill), I do not find it surprising that we do not see the build up of this relationship. But I find it refreshing that there is a relationship that begins by meeting NOT at school but at work. She works at Gringotts. He works for Gringotts and was in the country. It's natural and makes sense. The books are about Harry not everyone dating everyone where and when and how. The parts that were most relevant were shown.

-Silyara, Slytherin

Everyone bow before GRINDELDORE

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

First, thank you for saying Grindeldore is canon (it is, even without JKR's declaration imo).

The first glance: Rita Skeeter's book, lots of it based off of the not entirely present mind of Bathilda Bagshot and whatever method Rita used to get the knowledge. Neither Bathilda nor Rita seem to have considered the idea Grindeldore could have happened, and as such it is not presented. No doubt, Rita would have LOVED to run full length with a subject of Grindeldore had Bathilda implied anything close to it. She was jumping with glee over their friendship to discredit Dumbledore, and a romantic relationship does that so much more.

But we still find out a lot from that chapter. They grew incredibly close, were together most the summer, both were great geniuses of mind, at the time had similar lines of thinking, and they would keep writing to each other late at night (I'd like to see those letters ;) ;) ). Aberforth REALLY did not approve of how much time they spent together, and they only split after Arianna's death. That is most definitely something to split up almost any couple - sibling death. And Aberforth blames Albus, punches him, etc.

Sure, that could be a simple friendship, but that is AWFULLY close to get as 'just friends' in one summer. I personally haven't really witnessed just friends getting close so quickly. But romances? I've seen that happen a ton of times. That, alone, in my opinion implies more.

But we get more. Voldemort goes to Nurmengard - and thanks to Harry's mental link - we get to tag along. I'll be giving commentary on the bits as they come up.

The emaciated figure stirred beneath its thin blanket and rolled over toward him, eyes opening in a skull of a face…The frail man sat up, great sunken eyes fixed upon him, upon Voldemort, and then he smiled. Most of his teeth were gone…
“So, you have come. I thought you would…one day. But your journey was pointless. I never had it.”
“You lie!”

First thing Gelelrt does is lie (as Voldemort so quickly accuses) about the wand - and thus that it passed to Albus - from which he essentially has nothing to gain. He does not stand much to lose, either, but he still chooses to lie for Albus. And he's smiling. It's been over twenty years since Voldemort began to rise the first time, so clearly Gellert has been able to think about what he is going to do, given he knew Voldemort might come. After the decades, he chooses loyalty to Albus, even when Albus has died.

“Kill me, then, Voldemort, I welcome death! But my death will not bring you what you seek…There is so much you do not understand…”

Gellert isn't scared of dying (after over fifty years in your own prison, who would be?), but he welcomes death, after Albus has died. Yay romantic reunion in the world of the dead. Anyway, there is "so much" Voldie doesn't understand. Voldemort is essentially just going "wand wand, powerful wand, I want wand" without thinking about anything else. There are a few things Gellert could mean by it - hallows in general, any lessons he has learned after 50 years, the fact that he was the superior villain and thus understands more in general - but I think it partially includes (along with some of that stuff) that Voldemort does not understand Grindeldore because JKR likes to use hammers, and that again makes it so that Voldemort does not understand LOVE.

“Kill me, then!” demanded the old man. “You will not win, you cannot win! That wand will never, ever be yours –”

Grindelwald is not on Voldemort's side! Even though they have similar ideas and such in regards to race. Whose side is Gellert on? Albus's! (He probably also thinks Dumbledore died undefeated, yadda yadda).

As such, I think Grindeldore is canon.

In regards to true love, I think the fact that Dumbledore never was seen to get with anyone else but so obsessed with love combined with the fact that Gellert lied and died protecting Albus shows that it was true love. It may have been a bit twisty in some ways, what with the Greater Good and romantic love not always coming first, but I do not think that makes it any less true. It's beautiful and tragic and lifelong. <3

-Silyara, Slytherin

I bow before YOU and GRINDELDORE!

[pierhias.livejournal.com]

Kudos for that comment!

With Dumbledore being a character who's big on planning, whom we always see in control of what's going on with others and also himself, the fact that Grindelwald made him lose sight of the consequences of his actions, to me that speaks of the impact of their love.

And I agree with Sil, their love was tragic and they didn't have their happy ending, but that doesn't make it any less "true". In the contrary, how much this relationship shaped Dumbledore makes it seem more true than some of the other romances in canon.

Iris//Ravenclaw

[brownstudies.livejournal.com]

With the exception of Ron/Hermione, I'm not sure there's a plausible canon relationship in there; well, not counting Mr and Mrs. Weasley, anyway. Nothing is ever developed, and all leave you feeling like you've just accidentally skipped a few chapters of key motivations O_o It's almost as if she had a quota to fill, so she just rolls them out a few books at a time until she's tied up enough loose ends. Ginny/Harry and Remus/Tonks are just another product of her obsessive parallels with the Marauder era, and neither seem to have convinced the fans. I'm looking forward to see what the actors do with Remus/Tonks, cuz I wasn't buying it in the books :/

I think the lack of credibility in JKR's relationship arcs are a direct reason why fandom took matters into their own hands, and why our own ship pairings seem to dominate over what we've been handed by the author.

Ris//Ravenclaw

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

I do not think that the number of non-canon ships directly correlates to the fact JKR didn't write the most amazing relationships. After all, of the ones in canon we see more than just a moment, I think Lucius/Narcissa is one of the best written and most convincing, yet I have seen Lucius shipped with about everyone.

Essentially, as I see it, if most people end up with only one person, that's only one of a very large number of possibilities that could have happened. So the fact the number of people who ship Harry/Anyone-but-Ginny being larger than Harry/Ginny or Ron/Anyone-but-Hermione and Hermmione/Anyone-but-Ron being larger than Ron/Hermione, it's not surprising. The most popular characters get shipped in a huge variety of ways, and as such there are more non-canon than canon ships in fandom.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

What I think is interesting is the perception of "romance" in fandom. This doesn't just happen in Harry Potter. It happens in other fandoms too, but that's not the topic here.

I think it's interesting how fandom fixates on romantic love rather than the other parts of the series. Romantic love is a really a minor part of the story, but almost all of the fanfic and arguments in the Harry Potter community focus on this romantic love. Let us never forget the epic wankfest after HBP was release. *moment of silence*

Anyway, I think that romantic love is really a minor part of the series. What is more important is platonic and familial love. The pure love of a mother for her son is the corner stone of the series, and the friendship between Harry, Ron and Hermione is the pillar of the story.

Since I see romantic love as such a tertiary part of the series, I can't say that I've ever gotten worked up over ships. I am perfectly happy with whatever JKR decided to do with her characters. I mean, I wasn't like hardcore excited about Harry/Ginny, but I thought Ron/Hermione was sweet. Yes, the ending was traditional and heteronormative, but that doesn't bother me. The series wasn't some sort of treatise on social reform. It was a children's story about good triumphing over evil, and as a mom, I think that for JKR as a mom, part of getting a happy ending is having children. (Although the other main reason for giving the character's children is because with the epilogue JKR was trying to show how life goes on and a new generation takes the old one's place and how little things change.)

Karen // Ravenclaw

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

I completely agree about romantic love's place in canon and its moved up place in fandom. It seems hard to find gen fic (and I'll admit I am guilty of this too at times). People get so stuck on the romance that they forget about the rest. But given how much people search for romance in their lives, I guess it makes sense. I've heard more arguments against Ron/Hermione than Hermione the Lawyer, even though I personally find the second less plausible.

And agreed, het tends to lead to more kids/that kind of ending.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[supremacy-born.livejournal.com]

I'm not a big fan of romance in Harry Potter. For one, while I appreciate that teenagers are hormonal and it was inescapable that one would end up snogging the other, I think that more often not these relationships actually "got in the way" of the plot and more important things. I honestly think that Ginny made Harry look like a bit of a moron. And again, I suppose, it was bound to happen. But while he was drooling over her like a silly hormonal boy, I think he actually lost what little credibility he had. I suppose I can understand this relationship - he wanted to be normal, he wanted the things everyone else had. And it was rather sad when he realised that he couldn't have it, he had to let go in order to go on fighting the Dark Lord, etc. But still.. I don't know, I wasn't a big fan of it, and the epilogue was a bit too cheesy for my taste.

And then there is Severus and Lily Potter. While a part of me appreciates this relationship, another part of me just wants to go "Meh". Yes, this relationship made Snape more human, and it essentially showed that he was just like everyone else - just looking for love, and suffering from it. It gave him a softer side, showing that he isn't just a cold and calculating bastard. But this to me is both positive and negative, because while it does make him more "human", I think at the same time it makes him less "interesting", in my opinion. Because frankly, I liked the idea of him just being a cold and calculating bastard. It's not a great character for a children's book perhaps, but it would have been nice to see a character that wasn't ruled by love, or the lack of it. Someone who was just an independant person who was doing something for his own purposes. Alas, Snape turned out to be an emotional wreck on the inside. Which to me is touching, and disappointing at the same time.

Eve//Slytherin

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

I too have nothing wrong with the idea of those ships (Harry/Ginny and Snape/Lily), but neither of them were executed in the best of ways. It is a bit sad to me that JKR resorted to things like Harry's chest monster when writing romance and a one chapter sum up of "Isn't this love amazing yet tragic?!" But I've seen/read some amazing fics with both those ships, which shows how convincing they can be.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[pierhias.livejournal.com]

I'm not a shipper in any of my fandoms, and unless I read/watch something that's clearly designed to be a romance, I view romantic love in a series as just one minor part among many, many others.

That said, I like canon pairings to make sense, in a way that readers can see how this relationship came about. But since love is such a highly subjective topic, it will always be difficult to satisfy a majority of the readers.

So, for example I can accept that we don't really get to see any build-up for Remus/Tonks, since Harry is just pretty much oblivious to his own love life, let alone that of two people he hardly spends any time with. And I can relate to Remus's behaviour in regards to the relationship and later on marriage and Teddy's birth. I know it's frustrating, but he has always been a character with massive issues about self confidence, so for me his reactions in DH weren't the least bit OOC. As irrational and annoying his way of dealing with the situation is, I can understand it and see it as a consequence of the character he was prior to DH.

I'm not a fan of the tendency of marrying your highschool sweetheart, simply because I don't regard it as realistic in most cases. I accept Harry/Ginny, because as strange as it is, but I can see Harry wanting to have a wife who reminded him of his mother.
Ron/Hermione on the other hand? Not so much. I understand their relationship during the years of the series, in friendships as close as the trio's, it's not uncommon to go out with one of your best friends during your teenage years. With their constant bickering and huge differences in not only characteristics, but also convictions, I find it hard to believe they stayed together very long, though. But who knows, they might both have changed in ways after school that made them more suitable for one another.


Iris//Ravenclaw

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

I find you to be an amazing specimen Iris, for the lack of shipping. I'm not sure if you knew that. Shipping, canon or not, is such a huge part of fandom.

I personally find both Harry/Ginny (for reasons you said and I've said above) and Ron/Hermione plausible. Those two argued like an old bickering couple, and I know I/my friends have accidentally started some relationships between others by pointing that out. There is so much they disagree on, but the common line and main point they agree. It's sort of why I think James/Lily somehow working is more plausible than Snape/Lily. They agree on the most important things - that's why they were fighting together. And when you have those kinds of things in your head, the other stuff that can break up relationships does not seem quite as important.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[classical-wolf.livejournal.com]

I think that Harry/Ginny was set up from the start, as others have said. We see how Ginny reacts to Harry at the Burrow and even at the Platform. I like how JKR actually worked it in as a real romance in the later books, letting Ginny's feelings for Harry develop. I think that Harry needed someone like Ginny to ground him, (also) since he was going through so much. I would also say, that while this was planned, it was well needed, and gave the books and the characters another dimension. My one thought about this though, is why JKR decided to keep the love to the Gryffindors, why not have cross common-room love?

Rebecca//Hufflepuff

[pierhias.livejournal.com]

Well, there was Cho/Cedric, Cho/Harry, Penelope/Percy (and Hagrid/Maxime LOL), so it's not only the Gryffindors. Naturally, they are more in the focus, but the cross common-room love is there at least.

Iris//Ravenclaw.

[twilight2shadow.livejournal.com]

I originally posted something up before this comment and I believe it will be very clear why I decided to step back out of this debate once you read what I’ve said below. All I can say is that I’m commenting on what other people have said about this couple and just providing my view and that I’m not intending to strike back at anyone if it seems like I am. I know I’m in the minority… or seemingly so far the only one in-fact.

There’s an aspect of Rowling’s portrayal of a romantic relationship that struck me in particular and that is that love can be unpredictable but it gives us all a hope and chance for happiness and that it can affect us all. A number of couples showed us this. The sudden appearance of Harry’s feelings for Ginny is definitely one example of this, though Ginny’s had been evident throughout the series beforehand. Snape’s love for Lily was amazing and showed us to what extent love can control our lives and the paths we take and that aspect of the relationship was the most surprising. However, I’ve recognized that Remus and Tonks have always been disputed by many fans of the series.

They certainly support my view that Rowling suggests that love is unpredictable but I also strongly support them too and I always have. So you can understand that I’m a little hurt by the majority of comments I’ve read and that’s why I was to frightened to step into this debate. Can I at least offer my opinions?

1. We all hold odd connotations about couples that are separated by a larger age gaps, in this case it is thirteen years but that isn’t a major concern to me. First, it isn’t unheard of ( I have a friend who’s parents were born eleven years apart ) and second their age does not affect their love, it doesn’t control them. People such as them have a right to love as we all do, they are no different.

2. It’s something that doesn’t support my argument very well at all but I’ll acknowledge it. They were living in a war, emotions are heightened and intensified in such time by fears but that doesn’t mean those feelings aren’t real. Molly Weasley comments on this herself, in regards at least to war with her son’s marriage and her own to Arthur.

3. Harry is the concern of this story and hear we are dealing with to people he barely associated with, even Remus after the third book, and in all honestly, Harry too me for some time seemed so oblivious to the concept of love through romance for he hadn’t experienced it himself. If we were looking at it through his view how was he to pick up on the signs, that say, other’s would have? You may all also disagree with me on this point but I believe you do have leave a certain amount of room for our own imaginations and assumptions of what happened between these two characters. I’d argue that for any of the minor characters or couples.

Angelina//Ravenclaw//*is continuing after this comment*

[twilight2shadow.livejournal.com]

4. People tend to argue that they are so different in chacarter that is can be undeliverable to imagine two such characters as having that much at all in common, let alone chemistry ( this isn’t directed at any one, it’s just what I’m familiar with when talking to people directly ). I honestly believe they balance out one another’s personalities, have similarities that are hidden side by side with their differences but also that they reflect a number of aspects of one another within themselves. There are aspects of each personality that we never saw naturally and I always judged, by Tonks’ behavior when she was depressed, that in her there was a sound and quieter side underneath that bubbly, outgoing and clumsy Aurur that we all saw. Remus is quiet and she’d need that some times and she would have seen that in him, it would have been a comfort to her. Tonks also reflects the more curious and adventurous nature within himself that we saw in his friendship with James and Sirius in particular and she would have brought that out of him. Those two boys themselves were outstandingly outgoing, more so then she, so if he’s already been seen to associate with such people, to ackngolwdge them as his best friends, what makes Tonks’ character so different in that regard?

5. Remus wasn’t forced into this relationship and from the books alone we know he is an able and rational character and at his age he was completely capable of making decisions. Neither Tonks ever seen to a pushy character that got her way in everything, she’s commented to be very easy going in fact so why would she have forced a relationship on him. A relationship is made of two people, not one. As a person I clearly see that he would not agree to a marriage he saw unfit and I seriously doubt that he would have married her had if he hadn’t felt anything himself. His anxiety in Deathly Hallows was nothing new, it was a symptom we saw before but highly exaggerated due to the situation and time he was in. It was fear of causing harm to anyone he loved, to breaking the heart of his wife and causing his child suffering and we had seen that compassion and paranoia in him before as a friend and teacher to his students. It was always something associated with him and his immense fears and lack of confidence.

6. Tonks behavior in The Half-Blood Prince was a side we never saw in her before as we were so familiar with the bubbly and confident woman who wasn’t caught up in an official war, and one who hadn’t just seen her cousin die and blaming herself for, because she didn’t defeat Bellatrix before him or die in his place. Is that always forgotten in regards to her behavior at this time and in relation to their love? Tonks was a new character, she is a minor character, and this means we had barely even scratched the surface of her characters development. Why isn’t her depression acceptable? She couldn’t have been unaffected by what was going on around her, she couldn’t have been happy, and we hadn’t seen her sad before so how were we to know how she dealt with it? She was blaming herself for a loved one’s death.

Their relationship was a surprise, it was unexpected, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be real. They’re not as different as people think and Remus saw familiarity in her behavior, it could be said. I really think they are a sweet couple.

Angelina//Ravenclaw

[pierhias.livejournal.com]

I tried to say in my original comment that I see no problem with Remus/Tonks.

Yes, his behaviour was disappointing for many fans, but as I said above, I regard it as completely in line with his prior character development. He struggles with issues of self worth, which are only amplified by the situation (pending war, Sirius's death, having just previously lived with the werewolves, etc.) he's in at the beginning of their relationship.

I have to agree about your point 5. Many people tend to say he ended up in this relationship against his will. But while he said he wasn't sure and didn't seem exactly enthusiastic about it, all his concerns in this are about Tonks, not himself. He's scared of starting something with her for her sake, he's afraid he's too old, too poor, and too dangerous. He never says he's afraid to lose his independence or he doesn't love her.
So I think she's not as much convincing him to start a relationship as she is telling him to stop hating himself and showing him he deserves to be loved regardless of his problems.


Iris//Ravenclaw

[maaiker.livejournal.com]

The Ginny/Harry and Hermione/Ron were somewhat possible but I found them rather unbelievable. I know it's possible but I just don't really believe in your first girl/boy friend being your last. In my own experience it's what I've learned from every failed relationship that makes me appreciate my current relationship a lot more.
All in all I suppose Ginny and Harry are compatible, they're both passionate people and so they'll love and fight just as passionately. Most importantly they can relate to each-other. Which is something that Harry desperately needs. Their lack of creativity in naming their kids however remains extremely disturbing. I was waiting on forth potter kid to be be named Dobby Hedwig -_-
On the subject of Hermione and Ron... well it's known that I'm not a big Ron fan and that they are not the most easily compatible people. Their both awkward in their emotions, the only interest that they share is Gryffindor. Their way of communicating is rather lacking. She's full of (random and/or useless) facts and emotion and he's full of conceitedness (not willing to be interested) and stubbornness. I have no idea how JKR sees relationship work. In all reality it would have ended in a 1 or 2 year relationship before they would break up. Opposites may attract but in my own experience do not make stable relationships.
As HP remains a children's book JKR's choice to make them live happily ever after was required.

Maaike of Ravenclaw
I hope I've done this right

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

Dobby Hedwig. ZOMG lol. At least Hermione's had some of her wit in them - take out the vowels RSHG.

I agree that the first serious bf/gf/SO being THE ONE you marry is a bit outdated for Harry's generation. But again, it makes sense for the kind of book it is. Also, I think the pairings would have seemed random since she doesn't write about post-Hogwarts. Suddenly it's Harry/Susan, Ron/Many, and Hermione/Dean? People wouldn't be able to get it because there is NO lead up to relationships starting post-Hoggy in the books.

-Silyara, Slytherin

[cutiebeaky.livejournal.com]

I think the romance in HP is a strange thing. If you think about it, their not actually mentioned much in the books but they're a big part of the HP Universe for us fans. At first when Remus/Tonks was introduced, I hated it. To me it seemed like they were suddenly thrown together with little explanation and no previous hints of feelings for each other. However, as their romance went on I really grew fond of it. I think the contrast of their personalities really worked. On the other hand, I've never been a fan of Harry/Ginny. They have their moments where I can understand how they are a couple but most of the time I feel like they barely know each other. The books have never built up their relationship. They had the stage where it was awkward and they kind of liked each other but then it went straight into a serious relationship. I think romance isn't JKR's strongest point but I'm glad she's included it.

Becky//Gryffindor

[trivalent.livejournal.com]

How did Remus/Tonks work as a functional relationship? The idea of them together is something I can agree could work well with their personalities. But the way JKR executed it was not in a way that made me want to have anything similar in any relationship I am in or support. Nothing seemed...healthy and functional in their relationship.

-Silyara, Slytherin