DEBATE IS NOW CLOSED!!

[weemumlessmngrl.livejournal.com]

This Month's Debate Topic is...

The Ministry of Magic:
Friend or Foe?

To many, the Ministry is a place that gives protection to wizards from the outside world. It keeps Muggles from knowing too much, or harm from happening. But to others, it may be viewed as a place as wretched and twisted as Hell itself, being controlled by people who are all too easy to lure with money, charm, and status.

Arguing for Friend will be Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, Foe will be Gryffindor and Slytherin.


You may now begin the debate!


Before commenting, please make sure that you are familiar with the .
1. This is all in fun. Feel free to take it seriously, but keep yourself grounded.
2. In the heat of debate, please refrain from using any sort of personal attacks. This should be obvious, and this will get you docked points.
3. Please do not leave the topic, or leave your assigned side. This is also a good way to lose points as well!
4. What happens in debate stays in debate. I don't want to see any of you getting catty with each other for whatever sort of battles go on in the debate post. When we leave the debate, we're all friends again!
5. Every qualified comment will earn you points. A qualified comment means:
a. A point is made.
b. The comment is more than three sentences long.
c. The comment stays on topic and is correct according to the side you are debating.
d. The comment is signed. And by that, I do have to request that if you accidently forget to sign it, that you delete the comment and repost with your name and house in it. Otherwise, should the thread collapse, I might not catch that you were signing in another comment.
6. Please do not plan any sort of strategies in your common rooms. I want this to be your own genius, not what a prefect tells you to say. ;) Besides, there's more pride in coming up with something intelligent on your own, right? However, it is okay to track your house's progress or root your team on there. I won't be in the common rooms to make sure you guys follow this rule, so use the honor code.
7. If you make a comment that is just so out there that it has to be deleted, expect your house to suffer from the loss of a very large amount of points. So just don't do it, kay? :)
8. If you have any questions/concerns/complaints, please direct them at me via either IM (Mohawkalahka on AIM or rockinrollagrrl on Yahoo!) or email (meli_p@livejournal.com) instead of leaving them in a post.



Scoring is as follows:
10 points/5 knuts for participating (aka, for your first qualifying comment), then 5 points/2 knuts for each additional qualified comment posted after your initial one.

Comments

Foe

[jupluna.livejournal.com]

The ministry has done nothing to promote the fact that an evil and vile man is once again lurking around the community. The minister has even gone so far as to discredit anyone that actually states other wise by making up false stories, or replaying events in a darker light. Not to mention ministry faculty have taken to abusing those that speak the truth (Harry having to write with the quill that cuts into his hand) just for voicing their views, which don't match what the government wants everyone to believe.

Juppy of Slytherin

Re: Foe

[beccastareyes]

Just because the Ministry has had a few bad elements, does not mean the organization itself is flawed. You mention Fudge and Umbridge as examples why the process doesn't work. What about Arthur Weasley, who fits the mold of a dedicated civil servant? Or Amelia Bones, who seems to be a fair and honest woman? If two peoepl can be examples of why the Ministry is wrong, can't two people count to show why it is not fatally so?

-- Rebecca, Hufflepuff.

Re: Foe

[semirose.livejournal.com]

It is entirely unfair to judge the whole Ministry based on the actions of a couple of officials. Every government has its weak members, and occasionally a weak (or corrupt) leader.

Also, in the case of Dolores Umbridge, who is to say that that punishment was Ministry sanctioned as opposed to the creation of a twisted mind. Umbridge is an example of how a few people can make an otherwise could institution seem horrible.

Yes, there is an issue with the current Minister of Magic. The Ministry is currently lead by a weak man who wants to live in his illusions of a nice safe world, but that does not make the entire Ministry bad. Some reform is needed yes, but the Ministry is still necessary.

Maia//Ravenclaw

[semirose.livejournal.com]

Every government has it's problems, everyone knows that, so the fact that not eveyone views the Ministry of Magic as a positive thing is no surprise. However, the Ministry of Magic provides a great stabilizing force on the magical world and it provides security to many of the magical citizens. Through the aurors people are protected, through various departments the world is not commonly known in the muggle world, and through the Department of Mysteries, dangerous magical items are filed away.

The Wizengamot is also a creation of the Ministry of Magic, providing a fair way for people to be tried for various crimes.

The Ministry of Magic provides the laws that keep peoples magic in check. Without those laws half trained children would be casting spells left and right, people could pawn off magical items to muggles for great profit, there would be no structure.

Without the Ministry of Magic, most magic users would probably be pread out around the world with no ties to eachother. The Ministry of Magic is not simply a government, but the force the keeps the Magical world together. It allows people to work excusively as magic wielders rather than having muggle jobs and doing magic on the side. It is intrinsically necessary for the magical community to remain a community.

Maia//Ravenclaw

[nikkied-05.livejournal.com]

In my opinion, the Wizengamot has not tried all people very fairly. Look at how they tried Harry! Many of them believed Fudge and therefore refused to believe Harry and tarnishing his reputation.

The Ministry's laws have obviously not been very effective, or they are not inforcing them very well. Look at how many people continue to tamper with magic and bewitch muggle items, including the Ministry's own Arthur Weasly! MOM has also installed laws at Hogwarts that were clearly UN NECESSARY!! Whipping students? Giving Umbridge all of that power just to prove Harry was lying and making things up when CLEARLY he wasn't! Honesty, who can make up a story like Harry's and NOT change small details at least ONCE?

Nikkie *~*Gryffindor*~*

Foe

[tangerinesidhe.livejournal.com]

The role of the Department of Mysteries is actually pretty much unknown. Those who work there are not allowed to speak of the work they do. It is actually quite alarming that the Ministry of Magic is stockpiling so many dangerous artifacts at their headquarters. If these items are so dangerous, it would be in the best interest of the common good to destroy those items so that they can no longer harm the populace. When governments are friendly, they work towards demilitarization. However, the stockpiling of these potential weapons by the Ministry of Magic suggests a hostility on their part.

--Destiny, Gryffindor

[beccastareyes]

When groups get large and complex, government becomes necessary. Such is the case for the Ministry of Magic. we see that wizards and witches do not share one mind on many issues -- even on the issue of Muggle relations we see views ranging from the Malfoys' outright racism (classism? magic-ism?) to Arthur Weasley's fasciantion, to the Muggleborn wizards who remember what it's like to be on the other side of the fence. Given that Muggles far outnumber the wizarding population and have advanced far enough in technology that they could threaten the wizarding world, and given that Muggles are jsut as politically saavy (and capable of playing politcal games) as wizards, it is important that Britan's wizarding world keep a united face to outsiders both Muggles and some of the intelligent nonhumans. While wizards might not always agree with their government, and while the government might be inefficient, stubborn, run by idiots or corruupt politicians, or just plan wrong, it thus has that much more in common with the Muggle governments around the world. Overall, despite a few disturbing trends in the Fudge administration, the Ministry of Magic is doing a good job in balancing the basic freedoms of its citizens versus the need to protect the society it represents.

-- Rebecca, Hufflepuff

[nikkied-05.livejournal.com]

You do make some very good points BUT...Has the Ministry ever TRIED to become one with the Muggle society and try to work together? Not to my Knowledge! Why is the Ministy so sure that the Muggles will react irrationally to the wizards? It is quite possible that if they worked together that the world would be a better place! Not to mention all that they would learn from eachother. Ther will always be racisim in the world, no one can prevent that. (ok, I think that I'm starting to get a little off topic. I'll stop while I'm a head!!)

Nikkie *~*Gryffindor*~*

Foe

[tangerinesidhe.livejournal.com]

Arguing that the Ministry of Magic is fine because it is operating on the same principles as Muggle governments is absurd. That requires a concession that Muggle governments themselves are friendly--something that I will not concede without a strong argument supported by evidence/example. The inefficiency of the Ministry creates a drain on the finances of the wizarding community, wasting money that could be put to better use in supporting education and health care. A corrupt government cannot be a fair government as it will treat its citizens preferrentially, based on how much it can profit off them. Just because this sort of behavior is rampant in both the Muggle and Wizarding worlds does not make it acceptable.

--Destiny, Gryffindor

[nikkied-05.livejournal.com]

The Ministry of Magic (I will call it MOM for short to prevent my hand from going numb from typing) is not all it's cracked up to be. MOM has continued to cover up activities time and time again, or refused to believe that certain things have happened (aka the return of Voldermort) even though there has been evidence coming out of their ears!! In addition, MOM has refused to accept evidence that Sirius is innocent of his crimes. MOM has influenced newspapers, ie) the Daily Prophet, and encouraged them to write un-necessary articles discrediting those (mainly Harry). Their attempt to cover up the return of Voldermort, MOM allowed a person to enter Hogwarts school and possibly endanger all of the student wile practicing cruel and un needed punishment, ie) the quill that writes in the back of ones hand, and the re-installment of allowing students to be whipped etc. This is un-necessary on their part and in fact, while preventing the truth from coming out, MOM my in fact have caused more turmoil in possibly allowed more danger to happen to others in the future, which may eventually lead to Muggles discovering their true identity.

Nikkie *~*Gryffindor*~*

[semirose.livejournal.com]

MOM has refused to accept evidence that Sirius is innocent of his crimes.

When Sirius Black was convicted of being a Death Eater and sentenced to Azkaban the Ministry of Magic was in the middle of a war (well, technically at the end of a war, but they didn't really know that). Wartime is very different from normal times, and because of that extreme measures must be taken. Yes, a wrong was made and a trail should have been had, but in the time of war people are forced into positions where they must be ruthless and make quick decisions.

the Daily Prophet, and encouraged them to write un-necessary articles discrediting those (mainly Harry)
There is no proof that the Ministry is directly involved with the Prophet. It could be that the Prophet simply prints up the articles that will sell the most papers, and lets face it, people want to read juicy stuff about their celebrities.

Maia//Ravenclaw

[calliopeia17.livejournal.com]

The current MOM had its weaknesses; that cannot be disputed. However, the actions of certain individuals acting outside of Ministry control (e.g. Dolores Umbridge, who, for instance, did NOT have Ministry approval to set Dementors on Harry) should not be seen as a reflection on the entire administration. There are many loyal individuals within the Ministry who simply chose to not believe in Voldemort's return due to what is in all honestly a substantial lack of proof.

There was no proof of Voldemort's return aside from the word of one teenaged boy - and that is, if one is in a position of power in the government, simply not enough evidence to allow inciting terror in the population and essentially starting a war. Similarly, while Sirius Black was obviously unjustly imprisoned - and suspending the writ of habeas corpus is completely legal during wartime, if not particularly fair - there is currently no evidence, again, aside from the word of a teenager, who, in the minds of the Ministry, had very likely been Confunded or Memory Charmed by a dangerous criminal, to say that Black was innocent. Unless Pettigrew is captured, no evidence to prove Sirius's guilt exists- you cannot blame the Ministry for that!

The MOM did its best to prevent turmoil and terror in what was obviously a dangerous time. Because of the point of view from which we see the books, it is difficult to remember that the MOM acted as they did because they had no other proof. Fudge chose poorly, but at least he was trying to do what he thought best for the Wizarding world.

Calliopeia, Ravenclaw

[macaria.livejournal.com]

Friend

In the cloud of accusations going toward the Ministry of Magic, it has been forgotten what brought about the Ministry's creation in the first place.

In the 1600s, the International Confederation of Wizards met to address the growing problem of Wizard persecution. The Confedertion, who oversaw the various nations' councils and ministries, decided then that the Wizarding World would remove itself from all contact with the Muggle World. This very ambitious idea, while it took time, finally was realized in 1692 when the International Code of Wizarding Secrecy was passed.

The Ministry of Magic was formed sometime in the 1600s. It was instrumental in the forming of the Code, and still enforces that Code to this day.

While there have been a share of immoral Wizards in the Ministry, we must not forget the Ministry's role in our Society and consider those like Albus Dumbledore and Minerva McGonagall who work dilligently in their jobs to uphold the Code.

-Macaria, Hufflepuff


(Information gathered from HP Lexicon (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/index-2.html))

[nikkied-05.livejournal.com]

First, let me say that that was a very good move on your part on stating the brief History...now, to the good debate stuff!! :p

Why did the Ministry remove it's self from the Muggle society? it is quite possible that they were trying to cover up something. Arn't they trying to cover up the return of Voldermort (or rather were)? Dumbledore and McGonaggal are not part of the Ministry at this time (to my knowledge anyway). They don't not believe in every thing that the Ministry stands for! Look at how they stood up to Umbridge and attempted to prevent her from climbing to the top! Their efforts were not completly effective, but, the may have prolonged this climb! Is the Code really necissary? I'm sure some parts of it are, but, is the Ministry just making these laws to prevent other governments from taking control? In my view, the Ministry in beginning to look similar to that of a Communist Governemt! Not the Democracy that that seem to say that they are!

Nikkie *~*Gryffindor*~*

Foe

[tangerinesidhe.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, the Ministry has failed to achieve even this initial goal of severing interaction between the Muggle and Wizarding worlds. Wizards marry muggles. Muggle borns attend wizarding schools (which means at the very least, their parents are aware of the wizarding world.)If it is so important to the safety of the wizarding world to be removed from all contact with the Muggle world, then the Ministry has failed to protect its people.

--Destiny, Gryffindor

Friend

[ciara-belle.livejournal.com]

The Ministry of Magic is a necessary institution, if not necessarily an entirely perfect one. While it would be nice to think that the Wizarding World could be governed by the same democratic principles as the Muggle World, that is clearly not the case. Muggles cannot deal with the concept of magic, and the Wizarding world must be hidden from them. This requires a rather more authoritarian government than some people would doubtless prefer.

I believe that it's necessary to have a more Hobbesian world view when looking at the Ministry of Magic. Fudge runs an unwieldly bureaucracy as best he can, and I have no doubt that without the Ministry, the Wizarding World would devolve into pure chaos. Therefore, the Wizards have to follow Hobbes's theory that any government (even an authoritarian one) is better than no government at all (ie, anarchy and chaos).

The most important thing is that the Wizarding world remains hidden from a Muggle world that would undoubtedly persecute it, since we always fear what we do not understand. The Ministry has done an extremely effective job of hiding their world from the Muggles, and that is what's truly important. The Ministry is a friend to the Wizarding World.

Rachel, Ravenclaw.

Foe

[hxcpunkchick.livejournal.com]

While I agree thatany form of government is better than no government, the Ministry of Magic is far from the perfect solution you believe. If we are to be governed by more authoritarian standards, I would expect to be led by the best of the best. I would want the smartest, both in terms of intelligence and wizarding prowess, the most powerful, and the most compassionate. The people in charge must be powerful enough to be effective in not only protecting our world from the Muggles, but also to be a comanding leader to which their fellow wizards would look. They need compassion to handle delicate situations that may arise. Intelligence should really go without saying, but just because they may know the most magic, they may not know a lot about the world in general, or even have the common sense to run the Ministry.
Do I believe that the current Ministry has lived up to these characteristics? No. Do I feel that as a whole, it expects these qualifications in all its employees? Definitely not. Until the Ministry as a whole can say they have most, if not all, of these qualifications, then it shall continue to do more harm than good.
-tif, Slytherin

Foe

[limeyo.livejournal.com]

Although a system of government is necessary in any society, whether it is magical or not, the current Ministry of Magic is set up in such a way that proves corrupt and easy to manipulate. The original purpose of the Ministry, which we can only assume was to regulate magical and non-magical activity, has been distorted. The lack of control the Ministry actually exerts is proof in itself of the terrible handling of the government of the magical community.

Albus Dumbledore's continual maneuvering around Ministry regulations shows the inability of the Ministry to actually *control* anyone. Fudge's incompetency and the overall set-up of the government allows one man, a headmaster of a school -- something that should be completely unaffiliated with the Ministry's central power, to have complete disregard for the rules originally set. He exposes the flimsy guidelines given by the Ministry time and again, weaseling his way through the cracks formed by a poor government. Umbridge's lack of control over Dumbledore and the school proves the lack of force the Ministry can actually exert. If such people are allowed to slip through the Ministry's cracks and abide by their own rules, what is to stop others from doing the same? They are not protecting the magical community; rather, they are opening it up to stealthy political attacks.

Similarly, Lucius Malfoy has shown considerable weight on Ministry rulings. Given that he is a known Death Eater (whether ex or not), it is puzzling why such a man would be allowed to manipulate the system so much. He is able to bribe men of supposed character, those politicians responsible for the lives of many, and did so without punishment, until another force -- namely the equally manipulative nature of Dumbledore -- stopped him from doing so. Yet the damage had already been done. With the increasing danger and uprise of Voldemort, the Ministry has become an easily-corrupted entity and powerless to stop any threat.

While a Ministry is necessary, the current system inflicts too many internal damages on the magical population. It is not working for the well-being of the magical society -- it is working for the benefit of its own workers.

Lime, Gryffindor

[macaria.livejournal.com]

Friend

It took many years and lots of fights before women were allowed to vote in the US. It took many years and lots of fights before the Civil Rights Act was passed in the US.

What's that mean exactly? US government isn't perfect. Never has been. Never will be. Why?

Cause HUMANS aren't perfect. We have our flaws. We have had laws that sounded good at the time but as we look back at them with the 20/20 vision of hindsight, thought 'What WERE we thinking?'

The same can be said for the Ministry of Magic. It's not perfect.

We're going to have our fair share of leaders that sometimes do stupid, illogical things. We're going to have the Malfoys that want to be greedy gits and bribe their way to the top.

But the alternative? NO Ministry of Magic? NO form of checks and balances to oversee the Wizard world? NO protection from the Dursleys of the Muggle world? No thanks.

-Macaria, Hufflepuff

[angeleyesjg24.livejournal.com]

I agree wholeheartedly. No form of government is perfect. Each has its flaws. This is the form of government in the magical world and, barring any major overthrow, will remain the form of governmet. The alternatives to the Ministry are slim. It must be a fair form of government that protects and serves all wizards.

Think about it this way: If Voldemort were in-charge, the death-eater and pureblood wizards would be happy. If Dumbledore were in-charge, those not pureblood would be happy. Under Fudge, some people are happy, some are upset. To compare it to the society of the world today: Bush is loved by conservatives; Kerry is loved by liberals (I'm generalizing here). In parallel to the Ministry of Magic, Fudge could be considered a conservative (or, I guess depending on how you look at it, a liberal). Not everyone is going to be happy under any given government.

Simply don't through the baby out with the bathwater.

Anna M, Ravenclaw

[intotheheart.livejournal.com]

Foe

The current (OoTP) behaviour of the Ministry of Magic is a foe to honest, trusting witches and wizards everywhere. By allowing corruption within their ranks, they have alienated not only the public, but their employees as well.

Firstly, corruption is evident throughout the Ministry, particularily in sucumbing to threats and coercions of one powerful group. For example, Lucius Malfoy's involvement in Dumbledore's suspension from duty in (I believe) CoS. There's also some evidence of favouritism under certain situations. When Harry Potter was still in their eyes the magnificent "Boy Who Lived," they went beyond the rules to protect him. But once he made public a scary situation, the Ministry flip-flopped to a completely different position. Umbridge is another example of "favouritism," breaking boundaries of human decency to punish and control for the purpose of the Ministry.

Secondly, the current government endangered the lives of all people (wizards and Muggles alike) by refusing to accept a more dangerous truth. The failure of the government to act, and the failure of its employees to make efforts to bring about change to the government (even Arthur Weasley, who I love dearly, focused his efforts privately, when more public voices needed to be heard.) I do not believe they were witholding the information in any way to help the public. Ignorance is not bliss, but makes a dangerous situation more dangerous.

Those are my arguments for the current (OoTP) government as a Foe.

Laura, Gryffindor

[shayuko.livejournal.com]

Lucius Malfoy's involvement in Dumbledore's suspension in CoS had nothing to do with the MoM. At that moment Fudge was present and actually protested against it, but as Lucius said, the decision was not up to the ministry.

When Harry was being protected, there was a murderer after him. Him being the boy who lived had nothing with that. Well okay, it made him the target. They were protecting the target, regardless of who it was. They had a very good reason to think Sirius was after Harry. But what reason did they have to believe what he said about Voldemort? The word of a 14-year-old? Sure Dumbledore was backing him up, but he would back up Harry anytime. They had their own people working on the Voldemort-case and there was nothing that showed Voldemort might be back.

The way Umbridge acted was completely out of line, I think we all agree on that. And I think if the ministry would have known something would have definitely be done, they wouldn't have approved her actions.

Voldemort is back. So now it would have been better if the ministry had acknowledged that earlier. But think of the damage that would have been done if Harry's story wasn't true. Panic everywhere and what would have been the ministry's excuse? Oh, but *Harry* said so, therefore it must be true? They simply needed more evidence than that.

-Marije, Hufflepuff

Friend

[angeleyesjg24.livejournal.com]

The point has been made that the Ministry of Magic neglected to act in defeating Voldemort. Look back at American history: how long did it take for Americans to enter the Second World War? Long after Hitler begain corupting the children and people of Germany. We didn't enter when we recieved reports of the death and distruction. Nor did we enter when the war spread to nuteral nations in an effort to protect them. We only entered when we were directly attacked.

In parallel to the ministry, the ministry will, if I am correct in my perdiction, stop denying the return of Voldemort and act. Not only because it is necessary, but because their own turf has been hit. That may not be right, but it is what has always been done.

True, two wrongs do not make a right. I cannot argue that, nor will I attempt to. All my point is is that we did not remove the president-let alone the entire form of government- because of a lack of action.

Anna M, Ravenclaw

Re: Friend

[pfc-rat.livejournal.com]

But at no point did the American government deny the mass media outlets the ability to publicize the war-mongering and hatred that was being perpetrated in Nazi Germany. People were free to read the truth, and make their own decisions based on the information they were presented. In OotP, the MoM prevented ANY publicity regardty you-know-who's return. Even if they wanted to believe it, they had no place to turn for information.

Melissa, Gryff

[pfc-rat.livejournal.com]

Foe:

Anyone read the book 1984 by George Orwell? He speaks of an alternate future in which the entire world is subjugated and indoctrinated to believe what the government wishes them to. Is this not the attempt that was made by the MoM during the entire duration of OotP? They monitered everyone's travel by magical means, intercepted all incoming and outgoing forms of communiction, and forced the ONLY media outlet in the wizarding world to report their skewed interpretation of things in order to keep the wizarding world ignorant to reality, and force them to side with the ministry. This is propaganda akin to that used in pre-WWII Nazi Germany, and could only have ended in devastation had the truth not made itself so BLATANTLY known. Surely the signs of a corrupt government if ever there were one.

Melissa, Gryff

[avari-elf.livejournal.com]

Friend.

While the MoM certainly has its flaws, and some of its members behaved in a disgraceful manner during OotP, I cannot help but think the comparison to 1984 or Nazi Germnay is too strong and unfair. Let us not forget who the real ennemy is here: Voldemort and his partisans. They are the ones who should be compared, and righlty so, to Nazis and such. MoM behaves like the Europeans and the Americans when first confronted to Hitler: denial. Not a good attitude, but a humane one.

Fudge may be incompetent, but he is not in favour of Voldemort. He simply is in denial, which is be a dangerous attitude but does not make him a partisan of Voldemort.

Let us not forget he is reflecting the opinion of many wizards and witches in that way. We can regret he has not more vision and political courage, but may I remark that sometimes people get the government they deserve?

Lack of political awareness will not help maintain a good government. I regret that wizards and witches are not more prompt to defend the liberty of the press for example and to question and to demonstrate about matters they feel are unsatisfactory,. I regret there aren't more people ready to create alternate sources of information, besides Lovegood's newspaper, which should be possible in a world who has magic.

I believe the MoM has great potential, and has some very good aspects, if only in protecting Wizards from Muggles, and vice versa, and policing the wizarding world.
What we need is more politically-aware people to work intandem with the MoM. Not people who will blindly follow one side or the other because of family history and/or their sorting in Hogwarts. Wizards and witches are adults, so they should behave like adults: awareness, reflection, interest in others, and a healthy dose of scepticism and criticsim in front of certain theories.

Avari // Ravenclaw

[bloodied-aura.livejournal.com]

The ministy of magic is, regrettably, our Foe.
True, in the past, they have served as a sound establishment for upholding the International Statute of Secrecy, but no longer. With recent issues brought to light, it has become increasingly clear that the Ministry, or at least those who govern it, has become as archaic, outdated and potentially dangerous as using broomsticks without a cushioning charm, or unbreakable breaking charms.
Our Ministy of Magic Leader, Cornelius Fudge, has shown us that when it comes to matters of grave urgency, he lacks the backbone and political strength to address those matters at all, let alone immediately as they should be.
The grave matter I speak of is, of course, of the return of He Who Must Not Be Named. As all of us who accept the truth know, this is not something that can be covered up, or pushed aside. And yet this is exactly what the Ministry did!
When the information was brought to the Ministry by perhaps the most reliable source avaliable to us - Albus Dumbledore, was the appropriate action taken? Were precautions put in place? Were the public warned? No. No! The source of the finding, Harry Potter - the Boy Who Lived - was made to look a lunatic through use of the Daily Prophet and Dumbledore was slowly discredited to the eyes of magical society.
This is not what we need on the eve of an almost certain war!
While it is not something anyone likes to accept - the alternative is, in this case, far worse. He Who Must Not Be Named must be removed as a threat, or we live in terror, and eventually under his rule.
We cannot let ourselves be governed by such a flawed system as the Ministry has shown itself to be in a time when we require strength!

In a war - and ladies and gentlemen, as I have just said, the prospect of this is almost unavoidable - anything that hinders the progress of your own side is seen to be as grave a threat as your actual enemy. If it is within your own stronghold it is even more of a threat.
The Ministry Of Magic is our foe.

~ Meghan
Gryffindor.

[macaria.livejournal.com]

*dons a flame suit before typing this next post*

Yeah. The Ministry did a lot of really stupid stuff leading up to the return of Voldemort and a bit afterwards.

It almost reads like what happened with Sadaam Hussein. Kicked his ass in the first Gulf War but instead of fully getting rid of him we left him in power. Put a bunch of sanctions on Iraq. Made him promise he wouldn't do anything stupid like what he did to Kuwait ever again.

Guess what? he did anyway. Killed Lord only knows how many people (I've heard estimates from the hundreds of thousands and on UP) and starved his own people while he was getting rich off the UN Oil for Food program.

Few years ago he reared his ugly head again. Said he had nukes and would use them. Thumbed his nose at the UN AND the US.

What did we do? Gave him a chance to clean his ways. When he didn't we went in there and kicked his ass. Hard. Now he sits in prison and will be tried for war crimes.

Yes, the Ministry's handling of Voldemort's return to power was REALLY bad. Just like our handling of Sadaam just after the first Gulf War. But now that he IS back, and the Ministry is acknowledging it, I foresee the Ministry taking a much more active role in stopping him.

If we DIDN'T have a Ministry, no Aurors, no Dementors, nothing to keep Voldemort in check, we'd be just as vulnerable to him as that little Kurdish village was to Sadaam. You know, the village he hit with poison gas and nearly wiped off the face of the planet.

-Macaria, Hufflepuff

[k1mono.livejournal.com]

Foe
I am not as well acquainted with the HP universe as yet, in relation to reading only 2 of the 5 novels and only watching the films, so forgive me if my side of the debate is not as proficient or precise as others, but I am doing my best to contribute to this particular argument, so it may be full of holes and open to disagreement but none the less, I am having a go.

From what I have perceived, the crimes of the few has damaged the reputation of The Ministry irreparably. Where there is power, corruptness inevitably follows.

It doesn't really matter to the masses, if one individual has become so hellbent on tarnishing the reputation of a fifteen year old survivor of Voldemort, or another whose determination to climb as high a position as she can, and everyone else can suffer as a consequence. The general masses will still see it as a Ministry catastrophe.

Many of its officers are no doubt self serving and lining their pockets as it where, whilst damaging the reputation of their employers.
The Ministry is not blameless, they haplessly wander around in denial, presuming that everyone is honest and working with them as opposed to working for themselves.
The hierarchy are completely out of touch with what is going on in the normal working environment, that is why corruption and bribery etc is rife. The top man may have power over all his employees, but seemingly hasn't got a clue in how they work etc. So as far as he is concerned, they are merely numbers not real beings.

Then there are those who are in authority, such as Fudge, Malfoy and Umbridge, who do everything possible to ensure that their own comforts are met, regardless of who gets in the way merely by using their positions in the Ministry. They become blinded by the power they are given and therefore reasoning is no longer an ability. And their reaction is the evasive cry of "I did it for the Ministry, Its my job" If the Ministry had done its job, then these incidents would never had occurred. For such a far reaching establishment, surely there would be some indication of what was about to happen, or have the Ministry resorted to apathy as its mentor.

As for protecting its people, Is simply disregarding forthcoming danger by the Ministry due to Harry's speaking of Voldemorts return good for the common people? So keeping quiet and thus damaging Harry's credibility with all the media frenzy be a good thing for them to do? I think not.

Not taking the decision to comprehend the possibility of Voldemorts return. Why did they do this? Are they afraid of Harry? Do they have something to hide?

Another problem is the "Old Boys Schools" way of thinking, the Ministry is becoming outdated in its ways as time continues, relying on old blood rather then fresh new ideas and progression, thus it can bring in the problem of the Ministry becoming in some cases God Like, A benign fatherly, establishment, who is happy while its people follow into its way of thinking, but as soon as someone provokes or questions its motives it becomes a destructive demon.

In Protecting its People it will also have no compulsion in destroying its People either.

Ren : Gryffindor (now off to buy the 3 books she hasn't read)

[macaria.livejournal.com]

Ok this debate has gone from 'Ministry of Magic: Friend or Foe' to 'Let's discuss all the ways Fudge is a dumba**' NOT GOOD.

You know, I could not STAND Bill Clinton when he was President (hell I STILL can't stand him. But I digress...) Didn't like very many of his policies at all and that whole Monica thing? EWWW.

Did I lose faith in the government as a whole? NO. Did I want to do away with the entire US Government? NO. Because there have been US Presidents before him, there are US Presidents after him (Thank you George W Bush) and there'll be Presidents long after I'm gone.

THAT is government. The face of government changes with time. As new people come in and the old ones leave, that government's new outlook on things is seen.

That doesn't mean we scrap the whole government cause they did some stupid stuff. The Ministry of Magic, even with the few idiots running about, is doing their job. There's lots of behind the scenes stuff that we don't see and can easily be taken for granted when we feel like we've been slighted by a few.

For those of you who don't mind spoilers for the next book I'd suggest going here (http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book6facts.shtml)to Mugglenet.com and look. There's a few notes in there that just might surprise you.

-Macaria, Hufflepuff