Debate: Now Officially OVER. :)

[weemumlessmngrl.livejournal.com]

Okay! It is now officially time for this weekends debate!

Our topic:

In many school districts around the country, the Harry Potter series has been placed on the banned books list, disallowing children from reading it in school.

Remember, people for the banning of the series: Slytherin and Gryffindor. Against: Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff.


Please remember the rules. Points will be awarded when the debate ends at midnight tonight.

You may start your arguments now.

Comments

[twistingflame.livejournal.com]

Ok, well I guess I can start.

Despite what President Shrub may pay people off to say, Leave No Child Behind is simply not working. Our literacy rates suck in comparison to other fully industrialized nations, and socioeconomic placement is widely indicative of education level. I know a woman who teaches the 6th grade in one of the many Title I areas in the country, and it’s all she can do to get these kids to read for 15 minutes a day at the beginning of the school year. It’s painful and boring for them; video games and short attention span television are much preferred. But by the end of the year her children are reading silently for an hour with no problems. Why? Because she finds them books that interest them. Once you get kids interested in reading, they’ll seek out material that intrigues them. Just look at the phenomenon of HP. Have you ever been to a bookstore on the night they release a new one? I have, and it’s truly amazing to watch children as young as 8 or 9 open up the books and start reading them the moment they are placed in their hands.

Reading is important for most definitions of success in life. To graduate highschool, one ought to be fairly literate, and college moreso. And while I understand that “educational books” might teach children more facts, Harry Potter teaches them a love of reading that hasn’t been seen en masse in such a young generation in years.

Twi, Ravenclaw

[caffienerain.livejournal.com]

As a Slytherin, I'm supposed to be opposed to this in the debate. I see both sides, how it could be good, and how it could be bad. Personally, I don't think that any book should be banned, but for this debate, I'll focus on the bad.

Harry Potter gives a good look into the fictional world, where children can become lost, and often, make it their reality. How dangerous is it going to get, when children start carrying around wands and maybe even start hurting people? Granted, they'll learn Latin, but Latin for what? "Spells" that only exist in the Harry Potter world?

Don't get me wrong. I know a few witches and such, they do spells. But we're talking children in school. Children who are easily disillusioned by fascination. It causes them to not focus on reality, and moreso on a made up world. Is this generation going to be the 'Lord of the Rings' and 'Potter' fanatics until they die? (I'm not saying it's a bad thing.)

Kids should focus on reality. Growing up is tough. Time spend reading Harry Potter could be spent on creating bonds with people. Fiction books are there to relieve stress, interest, amuse, and take us away from reality. But when we immerse ourselves in this culture, this pop culture, are we just becoming another statistic?

I do believe that my entire debate has just contradicted itself.

ally || slytherin

[beccastareyes]

It's odd that you say that kids should be focused on reality. For most people I know, childhood is the one time they allowed themselves to be truly imaginative. When you are a child, it's generally more acceptable for you to run around like an idiot waving a stick and shouting. A few of us let this survive until adulthood, but even then we are looked at strangly -- my mother does not get what I see in comic books or in dressing up in costume for anime conventions, or in roleplaying.
Banning the books will not eliminate this. It either will kill any interest in reading fantasy all together, or it will cause kids to do what I did when my teachers took away my books unfairly -- either spend the time thinking about/sulking about not being able to read or coming up wiht elaborate plans to allow myself to read. Either way, I was devoting alot more time and energy to it than if said teacher had set up a plan-in-moderation -- I was allowed to read when I finished my classwork (which was pretty much what I had been doing when she asked me to stop bringing books other than my textbook to class). It also caused me to resent the teacher in question, because I felt her policy was unfair -- when I was several assingments ahead of the rest of the class and had read the textbook through, I saw no reason I couldn't rewad while the class caught up.

Rebecca, Hufflepuff

[semirose.livejournal.com]

Kids should focus on reality.

How would banning the Harry Potter books force kids to focus on reality? Sure one work of fiction will be taken out of the loop, but what about the hundreds of other ones out there. And lets not forget about the TV, which sucks kids in more than the Harry Potter series ever will. Kids are going to be in a fantasy world anyways, wouldn't it be better if part of that world involved reading, not watching (umm, movies don't count, they suck anyways), a series that could cultivate a love of reading and could broaden the mind?

Growing up is tough.
Exactly, growing up is tough, and sometimes you can feel utterly alone while growing up. Having a sereis like Harry Potter can help with that. First, it's a comfort, a place to escape. Second, Harry and his friends are growing up too, something that a child reading this can relate to. They can read the series and know that they aren't alone, and that some people have it harder than they do.

Maia//Ravenclaw

[caustique.livejournal.com]

(Meep, it's hard to be against my favorite series... *le-sigh*)

As an avid reader of Harry Potter, I can see both sides to the argument. Students just want to be able to read, and teachers want them reading something that can actually help them in the future.

However, I do agree that there are probably better things they could be reading. School is meant for learning things that will be helpful to students in the future, and will get them far in life. Harry Potter, while a very interesting and captivating series, does nothing in the form of learning. It provides an escape from the things we, as students, should be focusing on. Students should be learning while in class, and spending free time on other books at home.

Aside from giving nothing in the category of worldly learning, it is also a disrespect to teachers. Sitting and reading something that has nothing to do with their lesson plan shows that you couldn't care less about their class; and while that may more than often be true, it isn't fair to teachers. Our teachers put in much of their free time and a lot of effort to make sure students understand what they are learning, and to read while they are teaching, or while you could be asking questions or trying to get ahead, gives their time, effort, and loss of extra salary (because you know they don't get paid much -_-) no meaning.

Banning books from schools may be a huge step, but it isn't one without a purpose. Students have time to read other books at home; but while in school, they should focus on their studies. That is what school is for.


- Caitlyn, Gryffindor Prefect

[beccastareyes]

(Reposted because I forgot to sign)
As a hobbyist writer and a college student, I can say that Harry Potter (and any well-written book) teaches several important things. Proper grammar is often not taught well in schools, at leats in America, but grammar can be picked up from written prose. Furthermore, things like style, tone, and the structure of fiction are best learned by example.

I don't know about other students, but there were only two times I read non-textbooks during school. The first was during lunch or other time where I was on my own. The second was during work time, if and only if I had finished my assigned work for the day. It was drilled into me that reading while the teacher was talking was rude, the same as doing other non-paying-attention things, like taking a nap, working on another assignment, passing notes, and talking to another students. One cannot remove the temptation of distraction from the schoolroom and learning how to be a respectful listener, even when there are distracting things that one would rather do.

-- Rebecca, Hufflepuff

[semirose.livejournal.com]

Harry Potter, while a very interesting and captivating series, does nothing in the form of learning.

I will have to completely disagree with that statement. As calliopeia17 pointed out below, the Harry Potter series incorporates many themes from great works of literature. Perhaps if instead of writing the book off as frivelous fun reading, teachers used the books as a springboard into "the classics" then more students would be interested in learning about them.

Sitting and reading something that has nothing to do with their lesson plan shows that you couldn't care less about their class.
The same could be said about reading anything in a teachers class, or doing other homework. Allowing the books does not mean allowing a student to read while a teacher is trying to conduct a class.

Maia//Ravenclaw

[calliopeia17.livejournal.com]

Sorry...got carried away and forgot to sign.

Calliopeia, Ravenclaw

[empty-icons.livejournal.com]

In the other post she said to just repost entirely if you forgot to sign, just incase she can't find your sign later. If the comments collapse, I mean.

Just a heads-up ^-^

Oh right, and this would be _lostandjaded_ on my icon journal. I'm too lazy to sign out xD

[duncanatrix.livejournal.com]

Meh, LJ deleted my entire first post.

The Harry Potter book series is encouraging children to read, and aren't we pushing for a higher literacy rate in America? Students who never picked up a book are now fascinated by these stories, and reading 870-page books in two days. Reading is fundamental, people. I don't know a single parent who would be upset or angry that their child wanted to read.

As for its usefulness and/or relevance, the themes of Harry Potter are educational: friendship, loyalty, ambition, kindness, bravery...every single house embodies a value that children can learn and possess throughout their lives. If you look at some of the assigned readings (for example, Dickens, or the Greek myths) those have no relevance to today. At least the characters in HP are modern and children can relate to them. No, the readers don't have magical powers, but it gives them an escape from the mundane world they occupy the rest of the time.

Amy, Hufflepuff

[beccastareyes]

Oddly enough, none of the con side of this issue have mentioned the actual reason most people give for the banning of Harry Potter. When I Googled for the topic, and found several articles on the banning of Harry Potter, I got no mention of worry it would distract children or lead them into a fantasy dream-world. The reason given seems to be that, because Harry Potter contains magic and witches, and some Christians believe that the positive depiction of witchcraft is inconsistent with their beliefs and will confuse or mislead impressionable children, it is not material that children should be reading.

This idea is rather ridiculous, as Harry Potter has some powerful themes that are good lessons for children. There is a strong polarization of good and evil in the books, and we also see that just because you dislike someone (Snape) does not make them evil and that just because you and another person both oppose a concept, doesn't make you on the same side (Umbridge). Rowling's depiction of Hermione, a very talented Muggle-born witch, and of the dichotomy between Harry and Tom Riddle, two characters with similar upbringings, but who made vastly different choices, shows that what we do with our lives is more important than where we were born. Rowling also hits on prejudice and injustice, with the treatment of Muggleborns and nonhumans/part-humans. And, ultimately, Rowling is writing not about the glorification of evil, but about the triumph of good and love over all, in a very non-sugar-coated way, something that many kids need in our modern world.

-- Rebecca, Hufflepuff.

[anodein82.livejournal.com]

I too find this dicussion a little hard for me, because I do enjoy the books so much, But here goes.

While the HP series has not been completely banned in my local school systems I do know a few parents who would like nothing more than to see all HP books available burned for the simple fact that it's 'witchcraft' and therefore should not be allowed in the public schools expecially for 5-10 year olds to read. It gives them cause to think that magic is real and that anyone can do it. Childhood is best spent learning things that would help a person survive in this world where car bombs, terrorist attacks, and snipers are everyday accurances. It should be spent learning a trade so that when they graduate High School or College they can go out and make a living.
Too many childern who end up wasting their childhood reading fantasy book and dreaming of worlds where elves and hobbits and magic exist end up wasting the rest of their lives searching for that place and ultimately end up dying. That isn't the way children should be raised.

Anodein of Gryffindor

Thoughts From A True Witch.

[chellemod.livejournal.com]

As a practitioner of Wicca for a few years now, I testify that the witchcraft presented in Rowling's Harry Potter series is a completely unrealistic view of witchcraft, and could endanger children who decide to start practicing witchcraft thinking that the practice is just another page with Harry Potter and his wand.

Wicca is an earth-based religion which works with and through true magic appropriately titled witchcraft, not flying on broomsticks, making things appear, acting upon whims, and venturing after 'evil'. Although many different branches and beliefs reside within the general term "Wicca", the Wiccan Rede dictates that anything that is done returns to the person who is acting threefold. The Rede helps provide a reality check for those that bring Wicca (and thus witchcraft) into their lives. With the Rede in place, practioners rationalize that if they do harm, it won't just harm those it is aimed at, but their malicious intentions will return to them threefold.

In Rowling's books, this is only vaguely hinted at. For an example, in the second book, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, Ron Weasley tries to cast a spell on Draco Malfoy, but the spell backfires and Ron gags up slugs the rest of that night. The only reason that it backfired on Ron, according to the book, was not because he had the wrong intentions, but mostly because his wand was snapped in two and backfired. There was a bit of 'karma' so to speak, but the backfiring was more based on Ron's wand than what his intentions for the spell were.

One might argue that through the Unforgivable Curses, Rowling is reinforcing what the Wiccan Rede stands for. That would be a false claim, being that the author's views of what is unforgivable is limited to torture, controlling, and killing. In the real world of witchcraft, all malicious intentions are considered unforgivable and are usually not even considered period. A sender of negativity will feel their negativity come straight back to them in a stronger force than they used to send it.

The world of Wicca is also a world of polar opposites. There is good and there is evil. Absolutely everything is graced with a good side and an evil side. Although we are balanced with both, it is still possible to become an evil and intentionally harmful being. Although Wicca is a religion based off of doing good for one's self, others, and the earth (which is essentially our deity, sometimes divided into multiple deities), not all beings or entities that use their magic for good, and will just completely disregard the sacred Rede. There are definitely such entities on the earth, in parallels usually unseen by non-magic practicing beings, that are not only evil, but are incredibly dangerous to those that don't know how to deal with them, and those that don't know how to deal with them become their main prey. Providing real witchcraft to misperceiving children that are unaware of the real magical world is playing with fire that burns quickly and without a second thought.

Children can easily be seduced into what is considered evil by becoming fans of the books' 'evil characters' such as Severus Snape, Draco Malfoy, 'evil' Slytherins, or even Lord Voldemort. They are falsely secured into thinking that evil will work with them, forgive them, and ally with them. The real entities lurking about this earth are the exact opposite. They are the epitome of deception and manipulation, and they will take from whatever they can get, regardless of whether it is a/from a struggling and misunderstanding child or not. True evil exists, and it is not nearly as pretty as the evil characters of Harry Potter are.

While children also imagine their lives could be improved by the use of witchcraft, they remain unaware of the fact that they could seriously hurt themselves through witchcraft as easily as the good they imagine themselves doing by it. They feel as if they are finally justifiably empowered by witchcraft (that I remind they do not understand), and it comes back to them, putting them in as much danger as the aforementioned dangerous entities will leech to them.

[chellemod.livejournal.com]

(finishing first post, I ran into character limits)


These books glorify a type of magic that persuades young children to search for a parallel in the real world that is far different and less tolerant of their ignorance than what they imagined. Children become so enthralled by the magic in these books that they look up vague ideas on real witchcraft and mix them with the perceptions provided in Harry Potter, not ever knowing that witchcraft is not just a safe haven for them to have fun and pretend they're in Harry Potter books. Witchcraft is part of a religion, it's not something that can be just jumped into or toyed with at mere leisure.

As media has progressed through the ages, it has become filled with biases and corruption, targeting innocent and moldable children. In this series, an age old religion that has been martyred for is not only made powerful and glorious to children, but incorrectly powerful and glorious.

That being said, JK Rowling’s books should not simply be available to any grasping hands out there, especially not to children. Banning these books would be suitable, even if only to save innocent minds of getting themselves into problems they don't know how to fix.

[weemumlessmngrl.livejournal.com]

That tempts me to give you double points since it's technically two posts. XD

[chellemod.livejournal.com]

XD <3

[anodein82.livejournal.com]

While I do see your point many people would feel a whole lot better if the series was never written, for the simple fact of the matter that it does give an unhealthy statement that magic in this form does exist. And children at that age are very impressionable, therefore, they start acting like they live in Potterverse, as it is called here, they don't heed anything their parents or teachers say, they start to imagine that the things Harry goes through in the books is happening to them, therefore they think that it is ok to run away, in such cases as Harry has in book 3. It isn't healthy for a child of 10 years old to disappear for 3 days because he imagines he's being mistreated at home. It causes them to blur the lines between fantasy and reality. Thus creating a world where they are the students at Hogwarts, they are learning potions and transfiguration, when they should be learning Math and Science.

[anodein82.livejournal.com]

opps.

Anodein of Gryffindor

[semirose.livejournal.com]

The Harry Potter series takes place in a fictional world within the real world. In this fictional world, this magical world, children learn to use magic and are involved in scenarios that would never happen in the real world. Magical creatures and evil wizards run rampant throughout the world and it is up to a teenage hero to save them. A teenage hero who, despite being a wizard, has the same issues any teenager has; fights with friends, strict teachers, a rival, homework.

Children who read this series are attracted to this magical world because when reading it, they are captivated by the magic, but at the same time feel a sort of affinity with the main characters. They too have these problems, maybe not to the same degree, but they do have them. It is comforting for them to know that other people go through the same thing.

In addition to being a comfort, this series also teaches children important life lessons. Not everyone is as they seem being a major one. It also brings up the issue of prejudice and how when one is so blinded by prejudice then horrible things happen. And another one is appreciating things that one takes for granted. How hard it is to become part of a new culture is another. Children will read about these things and internalize them more than they ever would if a parent or teacher tried to teach them because this information is presented to them in an interesting way that does not seem like a lecture.

The series also helps to broaden imaginations, childrens and adults alike. It shows you to look at things in a different light. It gets children interested in things that they might never have been interested in before. For examples of the Harry Potter series educational value, look at calliopeia17 post. This is about life value, and without the Harry Potter books, some of those important lessons listed above may never be learned. And they need to be.

Maia//Ravenclaw

[calliopeia17.livejournal.com]

Sorry...a repost of my original, which I forgot to sign.

There are many arguments that anti-Potter book-banners bring against JKR's book series. Slytherin [info]caffienerain argued that children's fascination with the books might distract them from reality.

I, however, believe that children's fascination with Harry Potter books, far from distracting children from more intellectual pursuits, serve to initiate them into the broader intellectual world of classic literature and mythology.

The Harry Potter series is inundated with clever references to the great works of literature that underpin all of Western culture. JKR once said herself that the heart-wrenching scene at the end of GoF, when Cedric Diggory's spirit asks that Harry return his body to his parents, was inspired by a similarly affecting scene in one of the most famous works of western literature, Homer's Iliad, in which the noble king Priam begs the warrior Achilles to return the body of his son, Hector for burial.

Even in more lighthearted sections of the book, for example, when Hargid purchases a three-headed dog off of "a Greek chappie," or when the Transfiguation lesson of the day requires turning a raven into a writing-desk, JKR references classic literature - the Greek myth of Kerberos and Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland, respectively.

This richness in detail, which does indeed fascinate readers, not only draws them into the Harry Potter series, but provides impetus for them to seek out more information about the wealth of references contained therein. I know I personally have been lead to explore new myths and works of literature because of following references in Harry Potter, and I'm sure that many readers have had similar experiences. Suggesting that young children ought to pursue more intellectual literature is a noble goal, but it is surely far more practical to introduce children to this literature through a clever book series that they find intriguing and loveable. Harry Potter should not only avoid banning due to it's own merit, but also through it's intellectual value and ability to attract children to literary classics that are deeply relevant to Western culture.

Calliopeia, Ravenclaw

[weemumlessmngrl.livejournal.com]

You're good to go. I'll let you slide in under the radar on that one. ;)

[calliopeia17.livejournal.com]

Thanks v. much- sorry about that.

[amazonelf78.livejournal.com]

book banning just doesn't work! they been doing it forever practically and people still manage to read what isn't supposed to be read according to authorities. it's one thing for parents to filter what their kids see and do. it's another thing for a school to decide that books that are for kids (and everyone actually) cannot be placed on their shelves. i haven't actually noticed to much of this is communities that don't have a high percentage of christian families though (so far). so for some reason a lot of christian people seen to think that by reading a harmless piece of literature such as harry potter it will influence kids to want to become witches and wizards thereby worshipping "satan". (note this is not to bash christians) also saying that children need to be more involved with reality is stupid. kids are bombarded with reality constantly. children need to be able to escape and use their imaginations. everyone needs to be able to actually but anyways... there's going to be a point where the only time a child gets to use their imaginations will be between 13 years old! before they can read, form string social bonds, etc. for so many kids escaping into a book is the only way for them to escape the pain &/or unstable home lives they experience on an almost daily basis. there are several books out there much worse for a child to be exposed to than harry potter.

- kim, hufflepuff