(no subject)

[dear-prudence.livejournal.com]

I'd just like to open a friendly discussion about commenting on other people's voting.
I know people are not allowed to comment on their own applications, but what's the chop with voters commenting on each other's votes?
Do people think its fair/reasonable/problematic for people to make comments along the lines of "I can't believe person 'X' thinks that this person should be in house 'Y' - they are blatantly a 'Z', what were they thinking?"
It seems to me that comments like that are only going to start arguments.
Also, it's not very nice when people have read the app. and made a reasonable assesment based on their own understanding of the houses and their own opinions, and are then told that what they think is essentially stupid/wrong. I'm sure people don't mean it to come across like that, but it could easily be interprited that way.
What do people think?

Comments

[tangerinesidhe.livejournal.com]

I have thought some about what you are saying. A lot of times, I read votes that people are placing, and they are sneaking insults into them. It's one thing to disagree with someone's vote--it is inevitable that we will not all agree on which house someone should be sorted into--but it is another to basically call everyone who voted differently than you a moron, or imply that they didn't actually read the application.

As a side note, the no commenting/responding to comments rule really isn't enforced. This is not so much a criticism as an observation.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If it makes a person feel stupid that other people say "Oh, I can't believe people are voting [House]" then that's strictly that person's issue, methinks.

I don't think people should get personal about it, but I've yet to see someone say "I can't believe [Person X] is voting [House Y]". All I've seen (and made) are comments that are very general. If I see an app that just screams NOT SLYTHERIN for lack of subtlety, yet people are voting it Slytherin, I'm going to make a general comment.

I'm not going to say "OK you, and you, and you, you have no idea what you're doing." I'm going to say "I have no idea where people are getting Slytherin." This is a comment that pertains directly to the application, because I'm commenting on the lack of Slytherin-ness in the application.

If I see a Gryffindor comment with "I can't believe people are putting you in Gryffindor" I'll take another look at the app, because the Gryffindors know better than I do who belongs in their house and who doesn't. I think members of each house are better at recognising their own than non-members.

Also, I've seen such comments made quite frequently, and I've yet to witness an argument. So I don't agree with you that it's just going to start arguments as there's obviously no evidence to that effect. At the end of the day, it's up to you how you vote. You don't have to take other votes into account (in fact, you shouldn't, IMNSHO).

furiosity // Slytherin

[tangerinesidhe.livejournal.com]

I agree with the going back and rereading an application if someone from a particular house says that the person is obviously not their house.

Perhaps it would be helpful in these instances to remember to explain why. Often people just say--no way! Without letting others know why. Few of us have the time to write an essay on why we sorted someone into a particular house. But, I think that in the instances that people emphatically believe that someone does not belong in their house it is helpful to offer an explanation. Especially since it usually has to do with stereotyping, and it's good to remind people to be mindful of that sort of thing. (Even though it seems we've beaten it to the ground, there are always new members who haven't heard it)

I've never seen an argument break out. Though, I have been tempted a couple of times. (Usually someone being so rude as to claim that people are voting with the crowd instead of actually reading the application)

--Destiny, Gryffindor

[dear-prudence.livejournal.com]

See, I'm not so sure - I think it can make people feel unwanted by a house if members of that house are thar proactive about pointing out that they don't belong. I think one vote each is fair, and should be enough.

[calliopeia17.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, a very Hufflepuff comment- you guys are all about accepting people.

But if I see someone who people are suggesting should be in Ravenclaw with an application riddled with misspellings, or an attitude that just doesn't fit with the way we work as a House, I'm going to comment, you know? Because we're the best judges on whether or not somebody will fit in- and we can generally tell if someone won't. And I know the Slytherins are even more insistent than we are about that. :-)

I don't think it makes people feel unwanted; the point of doing it is to try and help put people where they REALLY belong, if we know they don't belong with us.

[dear-prudence.livejournal.com]

I hear what you're saying.
If we work with your analogy for a second, for the sake of argument:

Say you see application X, full of misspellings and place that person in a house other than Ravenclaw because you think they aren't smart enough to belong in your house.
When I see the same application I might look at it and see that the person is 14 years old, and in their answers has displayed a grasp of concepts well above their years, shows a thoughtfulness about subjects and ideas that are actually quite complex (e.g. the ethical questions that come up in the HIH sorting questionnaire).
I might think that on the strength of these facts they would do well in Ravenclaw, and that wih the guidance of their housemates might learn to use a spell checker ;)
We will have both picked up on different aspects of the person's app, neither of which is less important or relevant than the other.
That's why having one vote each seems to me to be so important, and devaluing other's votes by suggesting they are wrong or misguided seems unfair.

[intotheheart.livejournal.com]

I sort of agree with <lj user="furiosity" on this one. Often I say things like that (even if it's not my own house), but not because I want to make them feel excluded from that house, but because I think they belong even MORE at another house. If they're getting out of hand (like oh wow you don't belong in Hufflepuff how are people getting that you're obviously a slacker and blah blah blah), then that falls under the rule where you can't insult someone's answers on their application, I believe. Just my two cents :) -Laura, Gryffindor

[calliopeia17.livejournal.com]

Hmm. An interesting thought- I hadn't considered that commenting might offend anyone, and, to be honest, I think it would be oversensitive of anyone to feel that way.

I do occasionally put on apps that I don't know why the majority of people voted the way they did - but I never name specific names and I can't imagine that it would hurt anyone's feelings for me to say that. I think it's perfectly fair and reasonable for me to say that - I would never intend it as a personal attack, and I really just mean it as friendly filler conversation in my analysis.

Were you offended by something someone said? I'd like to see if anybody comments saying that they were offended, because if they are I think it's appropriate to ask that voters put a curb on it. I just can't imagine that anyone would be; it's just friendly conversation as far as I'm concerned. And I've never seen a comment like that start an argument.

I also think that it's appropriate for the Slytherins to coment when people vote the applicant into Slytherin for being "snarky" or "cynical," because as they've stated multiple times, that's not, nor should it be, a criteria for Slytherin House- so sometimes I think commenting on other people's votes is appropriate and even necessary.

Calliopeia, Ravenclaw

[dear-prudence.livejournal.com]

I haven't been offended as such, but I do read applications carefully, and think about where to put people (I don't just vote with the crowd or read one or two answers and base my decision on them), so when someone comes along and says that the person couldn't possibly belong in the hose I thought they'd do well in, it kind of devalues my opinion.
It just seems unnecessary to me...

[pikacharma.livejournal.com]

I think it's kinda lame that people can't comment on votes, but that's just me. The reason for the rule seems to be "we do it like that so people can't argue", but all the rule really does is make it so that if you're casting a vote, you can sneak an insult to whoever you want, and then if the person responds -- no matter how civilly they do it -- they'll be the ones who get in trouble. ((And no, I don't think saying "I don't know why people are voting ______" is an insult, but at the same time, it'd be nice if the people who were voting a certain way could respond to such comments and explain where they're coming from.))

I also don't like the idea of applicants not being able to respond to votes. Yeah, it might cause trouble if they flame people for voting a certain way, but I don't see anything wrong with applicants asking voters why they voted a certain way, or with voters asking applicants questions if they're not sure which way to vote.

[dear-prudence.livejournal.com]

That is the greatest icon ever.
I'm laughing my guts out here! :)

[unwoundfantasy.livejournal.com]

Actually, there's a whole second rule that if you do throw an insult in with your vote, you lose points. Simple as that. We feel it isn't fair to not allow folks to defend themselves in situations like that.

Bunny // Gryffindor
Mod

[marciamarcia.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree with what's been said above.

Frequently, in order to explain why you're voting a certain way, you need to explain why you disagree with someone else's vote. To a certain extent, you're making an arguement for why other people should vote the same way you did. If you can't comment (to agree or refute) what's been said before then voting becomes more of a personal snap judgement than a dialouge-based decision process.

Also, occasionally, you'll see a quote in someone else's vote that makes you think of a certain point about the applicant...quoting them makes your arguement more coherent.

These type of references aren't meant to be insulting and shouldn't be taken that way. However, when the comments get catty or insulting to other voters, then yeah...mods should put a stop to it. But there's no need to remove the element of discussion from voting alltogether. When those exceptions happen I think it's pretty obvious and steps can be taken.

In the meantime, if you think something another voter has written is particularly offensive/wrong-headed/mean and you want to talk to them about it; email them, send a reply from their journal, or otherwise take it off the voting board. That way, we avoid arguements in front of newbies, but keep the discussion.

Maggie//Slytherin

[unwoundfantasy.livejournal.com]

Could you please link me to the application/comments in question? If this is a problem, it should be noted that the rules state to contact a mod.. I'll look into this asap.

[dear-prudence.livejournal.com]

For example, some of the comments on this entry:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/platform_934/64352.html#cutid1

I'm not suggesting anyone here was out of line, I am just wondering how people feel about comments like that.

[unwoundfantasy.livejournal.com]

Ah, got ya. Well, honestly, there's nothing really offensive here. I've said many times myself that I can't see the house that's being voted. *shrugs* As long as there aren't comments like, "Voting for *house* is STUPID!" or actually naming folks, there shouldn't be a problem. :)

[tangerinesidhe.livejournal.com]

There's nothing in this one that I find particularly bothersome. As I said, the thing that bothers me is when someone makes a comment that basically claims no one is reading the application and just voting with the crowd.

There's not really anything wrong with saying that you don't see the qualities that someone else does.

But, it is wrong to say that everyone who voted in a way different than you is a moron. (Which is essentially what I think claiming that people aren't reading the applications says)

[mysticowl.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't think it's a good thing to inhibit discussion just because someone might end up behaving rudely/childishly. I do see miscommunication happen on the boards, but I think the problem is that often people are too quick to assume something was said in a hurtful tone when the words used don't indicate it. I think if we ask people to use softer language, "I think...." "This is just my opinion..." etc, and also ask not to assume to the person is offended/wants to offend unless the language indicates it without ambiguity, there wouldn't be a problem.

Alina // Ravenclaw

Sorting Comments

[mustbecrazy.livejournal.com]

Personally I find it more useful (and liked it when I was getting sorted) when people explained why they were voting a certain way. It's informative and interesting. Clearly, we should do our best to restrain from saying things which should be interpreted as negative for the sake of decorum and general respect, but there is a gray area here.

Could I ask of the mods that we get some kind of a warning before sanctioning or at least an accompanying explanation? I don't know if that's possible, but this community has so many rules and caveats that I'm often worried that in a best effort attempt I'm doing something that might be interpreted wrong. It's an issue that's probably most at stake when it comes to sorting because that's when we have the most interaction with each other and where the diversity of our opinions are displayed.

Maya * Gryffindor

Re: Sorting Comments

[intotheheart.livejournal.com]

Yup... I'm pretty sure the officials make a post warning you of new rules, for example this one: http://www.livejournal.com/community/hogwartsishome/28306.html (http://www.livejournal.com/community/hogwartsishome/28306.html)

Generally we warn you first :)

Re: Sorting Comments

[mustbecrazy.livejournal.com]

Good point. I hadn't seen that comment because it was before my time-- guess I should have scrolled back further. It was well explained, not leaving too much room for doubt.

As to the "Nos" listed under the platform_934 community, #11 (below) was the one whose guidelines I assumed this post was referring to.

Thanks for the heads up.

Love your LJ name.

11. When voting, do not bring in off topic remarks about the applicant. If they believe one thing, then fine. You don't have to make note that you disagree with them. Do not insult applicants, by calling them selfish or ignorant. If their answers are too short and you need more information before voting, then simply ask them to elaborate. Do not insult their answers. This falls under the starting drama category.

Maya * Gryffindor