October Debate!

[debate-geeks.livejournal.com]

Debate Closed!


Welcome to the October Debate! Before we start, let's take a look into the pensieve..!


Three boys entered, and Harry recognized the middle one at once: it was the pale boy from Madam Malkin's robe shop. He was looking at Harry with a lot more interest than he'd shown back in Diagon Alley.

"Is it true?" he said. "They're saying all down the train that Harry Potter's in this compartment. So it's you, is it?"

"Yes," said Harry. He was looking at the other boys. Both of them were thickset and looked extremely mean. Standing on either side of the pale boy, they looked like bodyguards.

"Oh, this is Crabbe and this is Goyle," said the pale boy carelessly, noticing where Harry was looking. "And my name's Malfoy, Draco Malfoy."

Ron gave a slight cough, which might have been hiding a snigger. Draco Malfoy looked at him.

"Think my name's funny, do you? No need to ask who you are. My father told me all the Weasleys have red hair, freckles, and more children than they can afford."

He turned back to Harry. "You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better than others, Potter. You don't want to go making friends with the wrong sort. I can help you there."

He held out his hand to shake Harry's, but Harry didn't take it.

"I think I can tell who the wrong sort are for myself, thanks," he said coolly.

Draco Malfoy didn't go red, but a pink tinge appeared in his pale cheeks.

"I'd be careful if I were you, Potter," he said slowly. "Unless you're a bit politer you'll go the same way as your parents. They didn't know what was good for them, either. You hang around with riffraff like the Weasleys and that Hagrid, and it'll rub off on you."


Draco Malfoy, selfish brat or victim of his environment? Good or evil? (or you know.. something else?)


1. This is all in fun. Feel free to take it seriously, but keep yourself grounded.

2 In the heat of debate, please refrain from using any sort of personal attacks. This should be obvious, and this will get you docked points.

3 Please do not leave the topic, or leave your assigned side.

4 What happens in debate stays in debate. We don't want to see any of you getting catty with each other for whatever sort of battles go on in the debate post. When we leave the debate, we're all friends again!

5 Only qualified comments earn you points. A qualified comment means:

* A point is made.

* The comment is at least five sentences long.

* The comment stays on topic and is correct according to the side you are debating.

* The comment is signed. If you accidentally forget to sign it, please delete the comment and repost it with your name and house in it. We'll be tallying the points from our shared in-box and unsigned comments are instantly disqualified. Leaving your house in a reply to your unsigned comment won't help at all.

6 Please do not plan any sort of strategies in your common rooms.

7 If you make a comment that is just so out there that it has to be deleted, expect your house to suffer from the loss of a very large amount of points.


There are no assigned sides. The debate will close tomorrow at 2PM EST.

Have fun!


♥ Meli & Marije

Comments

[evening-star.livejournal.com]

Ah, the famous nature vs. nurture debate. Was Draco Malfoy born with an inherit inborn evil nature, or was his behavior, ideas, and feelings brought about by his environment? Could it be a mix of both?

Which is true I don't know, but I do lean towards the fact that his environment influenced him greatly. He was born to wealth and privilege, and taught that equaled power. Taught those who had power were better than those who had none. His father not only encouraged snobbery on his part, but demanded it as a Malfoy.

Draco's father constantly criticized him. On every level Draco was unable to live up to his father's standard for him. That rejection and humiliation from someone trusted and loved had to be very damaging. I think Draco's greatest goal in life is to please his father. Even joining Voldemort seemed to have more to do with a desperate need to please Lucius rather than any real desire to be a Death Eater.

Throughout 6th year he struggled with emotions he kept secret about his choice, only letting the ghost Moaning Myrtle get a glimpse of his pain underneath. He was happier that he had accomplished what no one thought he could do, by letting the Death Eater's into Hogwarts, than what letting them in really meant. He was horrified at the violence that then ensued, and remained unable to kill someone himself. He began the whole stupid journey as a way to avenge his father and hopefully earn his respect. I don't think Lucius however, will ever give him that.

Not to mention that Draco was taught Dark Arts magic from a young age. What does that do to a person? How does the hate and evil required for such tainted magic, begin to shape the person itself?

Sarah // Gryffindor

[giove-dea.livejournal.com]

But how do we know he was taught dark arts at a really young age? How do we know that Lucius didn't adore Malfoy? We know that he spoiled him (giving him money for Hogsmeade, buying his position on the Quidditch team) but we never hear about Lucius having a problem with Draco or his grades? That's all from fanfiction, where Draco is made to look like the good boy that Daddy is trying to manipulate with humiliation and guilt.
How in fact do we know it was Lucius at all that taught Draco to be the way he is? We hear and see very little of the Lady Malfoy, and we see her in book 6 as being the overprotective mother that just happens to loose track of her son enough for him to go down Knockturn Alley. How do we know that Draco isn't messed in the head because of her parantage?


(giove_dea/Slytherin)

[giove-dea.livejournal.com]

Draco is a Veela....
Wait wrong debate!


Draco is, like other young children, the result of the learned and nurtured environment he grew up in. He was surrounded since birth by purebloods, and many of them "reformed" or "cursed" death eaters. He couldn't help growing up thinking that all they said was correct because they were all older, and more powerful. It also doesn't help that he was probably spoiled as a child. The first born son thing and all.
At the age of 11...you can't blaim the child, you have to blaim the parent for the child's actions...because at 11 years old...children are still questioning right and wrong.

(giove_dea/Slytherin)

[i-heart-spoons.livejournal.com]

While I do think that Draco is a victim of his environment, I also think it's unfair to put all of his actions on that of his parents. Draco is obviously smart enough to make his own decisions (as was shown when he didn't actually kill Dumbledore like he'd volunteered to), and while blaming his harsh words and actions on the fact that such beliefs had been drilled into his head at a very young age is valid, one must also take into account that Draco is actually is own person. It was he who volunteered to take on the task of killing Voldemort, not his parents volunteering for him.

(Raina//Slytherin)

[katieupsidedown.livejournal.com]

I do not believe that Draco Malfoy is evil, nor that he would have sided with Voldemort had he been given a real choice.

He was raised in a Death Eater family, impressed from a young age with the pureblood ideals, and much like republicans usually have republican children, Death Eaters would likely spawn more Death Eaters.

When Draco joins Voldemort's followers, it does not seem to be because he believes what they are doing is right. Instead, he talks about his father a great deal, about avenging the dishonor done to his family name when his dad was put in Azkaban. This is what he thinks is right, and like the Slytherin he is he believes that Voldemort will give him the power he needs to avenge his father.

He doesn't seem to like what he's assigned to do, though he's clearly smart enough to carry it out. He cries, and at the crucial moment he hesitates, but struggles with the knowledge that as far as he knows this is the only road to power that is open to him. Even Harry, angry and devestated at the loss of his mentor, does not blame Draco for Dumbledore's death, and even feels sorry for him for a moment.

~*Ariel / Gryffindor*~

[evening-star.livejournal.com]

lol :) I just had to say that I love your comparison of Republicans and Death Eaters. I don't know if you meant it that way, but as a liberal Democrat myself I found it too funny. :D *snickers*

I agree with your comment though. Draco seemed to join the Death Eaters as a way to avenge his father. I don't think he really thought too much on the politics or consequences of such actions. Severing Voldemort also allowed him to follow in his father's footsteps so to speak. Something for which I sure he was hoping would at last earn him his father's respect.

I never considered the fact that even Harry himself didn't blame Draco for Dumbledore's death, but you’re right. He did understand that.

Sarah // Gryffindor

[blackisslimming.livejournal.com]

In all reality, this is one of the most challenging debates to date because not only does it question Draco's character, but Nature vs. Nurture in general. Draco is a victim of his environment simply because personality traits arent genetic. His father, Lucius, has been proven as one of the Dark Lord's followers and his mother (as portrayed in book four) is one of the snooty upper class bunch, as well as (portrayed in book six) one of the Dark Lord's trusted. In the sixth book Draco's true self is shown when he cannot kill Albus Dumbledore. His mother did a good thing for Draco by loving him dearly, for his father's loyalty lies with Lord Voldemort. His evil nature comes from his father, while his conscience, small though it may be, comes from his mother. He isnt purely evil.


Presence//Ravenclaw (blackisslimming)

[shadowkitten87.livejournal.com]

I agree that personality triats aren't genetic. We have ample proof of this within the books themselves. After all, one of the major themes of the novel is worth of blood, and in my opinion, this is connected to Nature vs. Nurture.

The idea that your choices truly show your worth was given in the very beginning of the series. After all, Tonks is related to the Malfoys, and she is one of the main members of the Order. I believe Tonks is great proof that personality traits (snobiness, asshattery, etc...) are not genetic.

Sashi//Hufflepuff

[kaleidoruby.livejournal.com]

Draco is the product of a bad upbringing. He does things in the books that hint very strongly at that in my opinion. His actions in the sixth book - the breakdown and the inability to murder - give that away pretty clearly. If he was truly evil, he would have killed without any hesitation. Everything he knows about people came from his parents - if he had been allowed to form his own opinions, rather than just repeating what his parents say - he would probably be a completely different person. He was very spoiled (and remains so from what I can tell) and that didn't help either. If Draco's parents were different and he had a different upbringing, he would not be the selfish brat that he is now.

Carrie - Gryffindor

[flyingfire.livejournal.com]

What point are you making here? Is draco not evil because of his upbringing, or is he not evil for reasons other than his upbringing? It's not clear to me what you're trying to say. Yes, he is a product of poor parenting, but because of this, wouldn't he have killed Dumbledore without hesitation? I think you contradict yourself here. And is more than just a selfish brat? That is the question here. Yes, of course he's a brat, but is more than that?

~~Ashley//Gryffindor~~ flyingfire

[shiningstar-ajd.livejournal.com]

Hmm.. very interesting debate idea.

I think it could really go either way on this one... I've never been a fan of Malfoy. Of course I love him as a villian... but that's just a different story. And um.. now on to my actual debate...? :P

Children are so impressionable and are influenced by their surroundings and the people around them. Malfoy was an only child, and since his parents so highly believe in only associating themselves with pure bloods, then I'm sure that's all he ever had exposure too. His hero in life was most likely his father, so he would do the best he could to immitate all his actions.

Overall, I think that Malfoy is just all talk. He tries to live up to the family name, but when it comes down to it, he's not as evil as he thinks he is. He does have a heart and a guilty one at that. He feels remorse for the things he's done.. and can only express his true feelings alone (or when he thinks he is). He gets scared... he cries... to me, these aren't the actions of an evil person.

Malfoy is a victim of his own environment

[amyshaped.livejournal.com]

I have to disagree slightly with the influence comment. Yes, Draco was raised in an environment like that, but when he was sent to Hogwarts, his environment changed and instead of taking advantage of that, he chose to continue being mean. I mean, Hogwarts, doesn't emphasize that blood is better, his house does, but since all four of the houses are in the same school, he does have exposure to other types of wizarding families, he chooses not to move out of his comfort zone, you know what I mean? We can't completely blame environment, when he acts the same in a different environment.

I do agree with you that Malfoy is all talk. I also believe he's like his father in this aspect because while Lucius was acting "evil" he still more of a.. presence, influencing those who had the power at the Ministry.

Amy; Gryffindor

[jedilora.livejournal.com]

Draco Malfoy. You know, there's really not a whole lot known about him. We only see him from Harry and co.'s point of view, and they think he IS a selfish brat. But are the two questions necessarily exclusive to each other? Can't he be a selfish brat as a result of his enviroment?
He's grown up as the lone scion of what is essentially wizarding nobility. He's the last of the Blacks and the Malfoys, and both of his parents seem to dote on him. They've raised him in their image. What else could one expect him to be? His enviroment demands that he be spoiled and selfish.

[fallohidepride.livejournal.com]

Agreed. The Malfoys are quite obviously highly respected in the wizarding world and wield a considerable amount of power. He is (as far as we know) an only child, and is clearly adored by his mother and probably spoiled by his father. The society his family associates with is probably highly deferential to him, due to his social rank, and he clearly has a desire to 'fill his father's shoes.'

Given all this, Draco can't help but consider himself to be a Very Important Person. He has been treated as one for his entire life. He has never known anything else. I agree with jedilora -- he is a spoiled brat precisely because of his environment.

Kat//Ravenclaw

[memyselfandi87.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... this seemed easy, but it really makes you think. :)

I think Draco's life is almost identical to that of Regulus Black. Regulus liked the idea of being a Death Eater, but once he was in, he realized it was more than what he originally thought.

Draco had been living with his father, a Death Eater, for his whole life. Lucius Malfoy, no doubt, would have been eating, drinking, and breathing dark magic, and all that jazz. What was Draco to do? His father might have initially thought that Draco would follow in his footsteps as being a Death Eater. Draco might have wanted to impress (or avenge) his father, so he got the infamous assignment from Voldemort. Whether or not Draco is a Death Eater is not really relevant. He did it because he knew nothing else. That being said, my side is obviously victim of his environment.

[mybabyangel.livejournal.com]

Well, if we're making the Draco and Regulus comparison, are we assuming here that RAB is Regulus? If so, should we expect Draco to make a stunning turn-around also? Do you think he has the strength to defy all he's known? If so, wouldn't that suggest he wasn't really such a victim of his environment, except possibly for when it suited him?

I do like your idea, and I hope I don't seem like I'm attacking you. I just want to elaborate on it :)

Em * Gryffindor

[livia-daemon.livejournal.com]

Malfoy is a product of his environment. He acts purely based on how he was brought up. Prior to book 6, I think both sides of this argument could be seen. He was terribly mean to others for no apparent reason. Now that we've seen his reaction to having to kill Dumbledore, I think it is clear that he does not want to be a Death Eater; he is only acting on behalf of the Dark Lord because it's expected of him. If he had been an evil person, he would have killed Dumbledore without hesitation. Being an only child of an overbearing father, he doesn't know better than to act in the way he does. He's been told from birth to hate muggleborns and muggles. I doubt if he even associated with anyone other than purebloods or halfbloods before starting Hogwarts.

[intotheheart.livejournal.com]

I feel it's important to recognize that Draco's decision to join the DEs was not simply because of the pressure of his family. It's clear from Book 6 that his mother was AGAINST him joining the Death Eaters. As well, he is not mindlessly mean to people. I also really feel that it is impossible to be terrible mean for no apparent reason. Draco is cruel to people like Hermione because he decides to be cruel. A person does not just spout insults because of their environment, insulting and hurting another person is calculated cruelty, and a personal decision on Draco's part, whether or not his intention was to hurt or to impress.

(intotheheart//gryffindor)

[memyselfandi87.livejournal.com]

I politely disagree.

I agree with you in the fact that Sirius was bought up in a pureblood houshold and he did not succumb to the ideals. Nowhere did it say that Malfoy has actually succummbed to the ideals. He's still trying to find himself. He's just having a hard time, I think, because he was sorted into Slytherin. He's around his friends 24/7. Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor, and he quickly learned and agreed with the ideals his friends had. What would Slytherin house do if he suddenly decided he hated going along with all the ideals all of a sudden? Of course, given, there are two incidents that suggest that he might want to stray away from the ideals he was raised by. The first being the incident with Moaning Myrtle, and the second being the fact he could not kill Dumbledore.

SELFISH BRAT!

[intotheheart.livejournal.com]

Draco Malfoy is a selfish brat, not a victim of his environment. To suggest that his behaviour is the result of his upbringing is to completely ignore another character introduced by JK Rowling that was raised in a similar environment but did not succumb to it, Sirius Black. Both boys were raised in pureblooded households that EMPHASIZED their purebloodness. Both families were largely associated with Lord Voldemort and the DEs. JK has also portrayed both boys as having some conflict with their parents. In Draco Malfoy's case, however, he remains in the comforting life of elitism, despite any suggested feelings (IN CANON) that he may be conflicted about this choice.

Sirius Black, on the other hand, revolted against his upbringing, suggesting that Malfoy's behaviour and decision to remain on the side of Voldemort and the DEs is one of selfish person who is unwilling to challenge their comfortable position within society in spite of moral quams. Draco Malfoy CHOSE to be a selfish brat, his environment did not make that choice for him.

(intotheheart//gryffindor -- haha sorry. I posted under Maggie last time.)

Re: SELFISH BRAT!

[ohelectricshock.livejournal.com]

Okay, so Draco is a selfish brat. But not every selfish brats go run off galavanting with Death Eaters for no reason.

I do stand by the point made about Draco's upbringing having much to do with the way he is. And Sirius is a good comparison, but honestly? His friends were so much different than the 'friends' Draco has. Draco had no friends who weren't always sucking up to him or following him around like lost puppies with ten tonnes of muscle. And the first and only Gryffindor boy Draco attempted to be friends with, turned him down flat. Sure, Draco didn't exactly go about it the best way, but how else was he to know the fundamentals of being compassionate and polite when it's made obvious that he has never been taught them.

(Alex/Gryffindor)

[limeyo.livejournal.com]

I refuse to believe that people are ignorant and selfish solely because of their environment. Evil family of Death Eaters or not, Draco clearly has a choice in how he acts and regards other people. By playing into the evil-pureblooded stereotype which, admittedly, he is accustomed to, just shows that he is simply weak-willed and not an independent thinker.

For one, it is entirely possible for someone to overcome their roots. It happens everyday; someone I know has a grandfather who is horribly racist, but both her and her father are not so -- if Draco’s only excuse for being a brat and a bigot is because his family are, then it’s not a very good excuse. If he wanted to – if he had the will to – he could very well choose his own path independent from his family’s beliefs.

Second, Narcissa herself was astonished when Draco chose to follow his father’s footsteps. If I remember correctly, he volunteered for the job, even though his mother was perfectly fine with him not risking his life for his father’s cause. This is not nobility. There is nothing noble in killing someone solely for vengeance. His father might be in prison, but a rational person would acknowledge that there is a very good reason for Lucius’ imprisonment. And this is not loyalty; since when has Draco showed loyalty towards anyone but himself? Only to Voldemort, and even at the end that loyalty was wavering.

Along those lines, he did not do the job. If you’re going to do something stupid with a misplaced sense of honor and nobility, then do it. Draco further illustrated his weak-willed behavior with his own hesitation, relying on Snape to do the job, just as he did on Crabbe and Goyle to take care of most of his threats.

In summary, Draco is not a victim of his environment; he is a victim of his own bigotry and lack of willpower. What he does is not determined by what his father or mother did before him; everyone has the ability to overcome their background and be a better person for it. Draco refuses to do this.

Lime, Gryffindor

[amyshaped.livejournal.com]

Second, Narcissa herself was astonished when Draco chose to follow his father’s footsteps.

Oh, good point! I agree with you completely and that pointed out something I hadn't thought of. I honestly think that Narcissa doesn't want Draco to necessarily follow in his father's footsteps. I believe that that is why she protested him being sent to Durmstrang, she still held out hope that Draco would be a bit less.. like his father. That is what her choices suggest and it's because of that that I think that Draco, should he have wanted to, could have changed his course once his father was out of the picture, but he chose to volunteer to continue where his father left of. I suppose that's why I considered it his own fault that he spent those times crying in the bathroom, because he'd made the decision and there wasn't anyone else to blame.

Amy; Gryffindor

[jane85.livejournal.com]

I believe Draco to be a victim of his environment.

Draco's father is a Death Eater who has been loyal to Voldemort. There's no doubt in my mind that he instilled some of his beliefs in Draco. I'm fairly certain that he taught Draco some of the Dark Arts at home, perhaps to prepare him for the day he would become a Death Eater. In Goblet of Fire, Draco is overheard saying, "My dad wanted me to go to Durmstrang", a school known for its association with the Dark Arts. Fortunately for him, his mother wouldn't allow that.

[flyingfire.livejournal.com]

Is it really that simple, though?

Yes, he was, without a doubt, somewhat a victim of his environment. But he was also 16. At 16, most teens can make their own decisions. They have seen enough of the world to make conscious, moral decisions (moral, of course, is relative). If they don't? It is more than likely at least PARTIALLY their fault. Yes, Draco has his father in high regards... but Draco also has his own mind. You can respect someone without following their path.

~~Ashley//Gryffindor~~ flyingfire

Selfish Brat

[tangerinesidhe.livejournal.com]

While I think that upbringing can have an impact on the development of personality, I think that ultimately we choose who we become. Two different people can go through the same situation of abuse, rape, neglect, or death in the family and end up coping with it in completely different ways. While Draco was raised in a household that emphasized the importance of blood purity and support of Voldemort--ultimately it was his decision whether to believe it or not. Some children decide to wholeheartedly assume the politics of their parents while others rebel against them. Draco has been provided an environment where he had the opportunity to develop ideas of his own, to question the validity of his father's ideas. He made the choice to remain an arrogant, elitist bully.

As Dumbledore says, it is our choices that make us who we are (paraphrasing there, of course). Draco CHOSE to be selfish.

Destiny//Gryffindor

Nurture

[karinablack.livejournal.com]

How your parents teach you to deal with struggles and strife, says a lot about how you deal with it later on in life.
I don't think that viewing two separate people reacting differently to set stimuli is definitive proof of "nature" in the "nurture vs nature" argument.
I would argue it's more proof positive for the other team. :)

Karina, Ravenclaw

[nikkied-05.livejournal.com]

Let us look at the psychological aspect of this...

Children often become adults similar to their parents, they often behave the way their parents taught them, or how the parents themsleves behave. Take religion for example, how many of you are the same religion as your parents? Of course that there are exceptions to everything, but majority rules!

This information can lead one to believe that Draco is the way is is because that is how his parents act. Often, young children want to be like one of their parents that they typically look up to, Draco seems to look up to his father, using his father as a threat "Wait until my father hears about this!" Draco wants to be a death eater, his father is a deather eater. Draco has been brought up to believe that "pure-bloods" are superior to others, his father told him this was true, therefore Draco believes it is true..

Parents make a large impact on how a hild "turns out". Like his father, Draco believes in Pure-bloods (more superior), wants to be a death eater, believe Hogwarts could be batter with out Dumbledore, etc. Had Draco been brought up with another family, similar to Harry's perhaps, his beliefs may have been different, think about it.

Nikkie // Gryffindor

Nurture

[karinablack.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree!!!
I was just thinking it would have been HILARIOUS if Draco had been born a Squib. How different his life and outlook towards Mudbloods (sorry!) and other non-magical folk would be, because he'd be one of them. He'd probably reject his parents' outlook on things, and maybe their perception would be changed as well because of the experience.

Karina, Ravenclaw

[amyshaped.livejournal.com]

To me, Draco is a selfish brat, but it is because of his environment. Typically as we've seen the Malfoys, they believe that they are better than other wizarding families based on blood. Pure and simple. I believe that because Draco was primarily exposed to the pure-blood-holier-than-thou mentality by his father (and those that his father associates, ie: Crabbe & Goyle's fathers) he is the selfish brat that he is. Yes, we've seen that he is apparently unprepared to be as cold and heartless as his persona and background dictate him to be, but that doesn't mean he's not an arrogant, selfish snot in other areas.

He is mean and vindictive because he choses to be. He was taught he was better than others, yes, but it is because he chooses to still believe it that he is such the brat, even after entering Hogwarts, an environment unlike the one he was raised.

It is our choices that define us. While we can be influenced by our environment, it is still our choice to act because we still have free will.

Nurture

[karinablack.livejournal.com]

Another argument for Environment would be his entrance and behavior at Hogwart's.

His nemesis is Harry, a fellow pureblood. While he occasionally targets Hermione and the Weasleys as betrayers of the Pureblood Right, it should be a huge monument to Environmental factors that his biggest target is NOT one of non-wizard decent.

One might think that if he WERE purely evil, he would target those whom he viewed as less and less powerful more consistently such as Muggle-borns, instead of targeting Harry, who has shown himself to be a pretty powerful little wizardling.

Karina, Ravenclaw

[lariren-shadow.livejournal.com]

Draco is a little of both of these situations. Even though I think people are born good, some are more inclinded to do evil others. So that is one of the reasons why he can come off as evil. He is more apt to do evil than some others, but he still has a choice in it. His enviroment also has something to do with it. He was brought up by a family of death eaters who taught him that what they do is not wrong and taught him a dogma that he believes in.

Though, I can't think that he is truely evil. He couldn't kill Dumbledore, in fact for awhile I thought that he was going to go and help Dumbledore with everything. He can't kill, and that is something that shows that there is good in him. He chose not to kill him, and listened to Dumbledore in general. It goes back to Dumbledore's quote to Harry in the second book: "It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Draco chose not to do that and I think that makes him more good than evil. Away from his parents and Voldemort he was able to question what he thought was right and not do what he was told. He became good because he chose not to kill people.

[shiningstar-ajd.livejournal.com]

I agree completely :)

[shiningstar-ajd.livejournal.com]

I feel that a human's personality is formed from their surroundings. They pick up on the beliefs and the actions that are performed around them depict what is right and wrong.

Malfoy is constantly torn between himself because of the side he's learned that's "right".... and the side that he feels is "right". He wouldn't be feeling remorse for the things he's done if there wasn't something inside telling him that what he's doing is wrong.

Nurture

[karinablack.livejournal.com]

Nods, I'll delve further into using the situation with Dumbledore as evidence that Draco isn't "evil."

He had a large group of Death Eaters backing him up, including Snape- a very powerful wizard, teacher, and mentor bound with a promise-spell to ensure no harm would come to him.

He had the opportunity, he knew the spell, and yet he still couldn't do it.
Why couldn't Draco kill Dumbledore?

Honor, respect, shame. He'd been at Hogwart's so long that, while he felt Dumbledore wasn't the best Headmaster it could have, he started to be impressioned by the enormous respect held for Dumbledore by Snape, the students, and the other teachers. He saw before him a great wizard, and simply couldn't pull the metaphorical trigger.

Karina, Ravenclaw

[lovin-cali.livejournal.com]

I think Malfoy was born into a family that has constantly taught him to worship the dark lord..I mean his family were death eaters! I believe Malfoy knows that he's getting into trouble with the dark lord..and he doesn't have nearly the same amount of courage that Harry does. There is something inside Malfoy that tells him killing people is wrong...that's why he couldn't kill Dumbledore. He probably feels that if he tries and shows effort that should count for something. No doubt about it he's crabby and evil and out to get someone..he just doesn't have the courage for it.

[gilded_lady]

While I wouldn't call him a victim of his environment per say (for it really is a pretty nice one), I don't think it's off base to say that his attitude about the way he treats others is a result of his enivornment. All you have to do is look at Lucius Malfoy to tell you that--Lucius is decidedly anti-Muggleborn and not above using his wealth and bullying to get what he wants in life. Draco really isn't all that different, look at the way he uses Crabbe and Goyle for example. While Draco is spoiled--we know that Narcissa sent him sweets almost every day--I don't think that Draco is fundamentally evil (the way he broke down in the bathroom during HBP, the way that Snape did what he couldn't do at the end of same book), I just think he was brought up to think a certain way and that's exactly what he is doing. Only a rebellious child wouldn't have turned out the way Draco had and I have a feeling that rebellion isn't something tolerated in Lucius' house.

El Lance//Ravenclaw

[amaelgreenleaf.livejournal.com]

At the same time, wouldn't one think that if one was taught to be authortive or elitist, that one HAD to have his/her way? Rebellion is not, I don't think, the right word that Draco himself would have used. I would moreso think that it would be more of retaliation and cunningness. He was sorted into Slytherin after all wasn't he?

In question to what you've stated, (",) I ask wouldn't Draco have been strong enough not to cower against his father and say, ok, you get to have your way, and you say I should have my way, why can't I have my way around you? It could turn around in his parents' face. He is spoiled because he chooses to be. He listened to his father like you said. When in reality, he himself was stubborn and spoiled. He could have ended up asking questions about his father's own authority over him. Even though he was made to think a certain way, he still has the power to think for himself, although instead of defying his father, he defies others who have not yet exerted their power over him.

[musicaltwin07.livejournal.com]

I think he is kind of a selfish brat, however he's also a victim. His parents brought him up to think all purebloods are better than muggles or half-bloods. Naturally if he didn't think that his family might disown him. Plus in *spoiler alert* HPB he was too scared and nervous to kill Dumbledore. This shows he does respect people his family doesn't. He has to put on an act to live up to his parents expectations. I think he wants to be good and befriend others. He might just live his life in constant fear of his parents (or possibly Voldemort's) wrath.

[amaelgreenleaf.livejournal.com]

Maybe he didn't kill Dumbledore out of fear. I think JKR did and exceptionally good job at hiding real reasons and motives behind each of her characters' actions. Meanwhile, I see that maybe he was thinking of himself and not Dumbledore's life. Dumbledore was powerful. And maybe he didnt kill him to save his own skin. If he killed Dumbledore, he might end up where his father was. If he killed Dumbledore, everything that he stood for like his inheritence and reputation would go down the drain. Maybe he didn't kill Dumbledore to save his himself; therefore still making him selfish.

And I believe that fear drives one person to do things he/she would normally not do. Given that he was living in fear of Voldemort, that fear must have been pretty strong. But given the situation, if Voldemort wasn't behind it, would he still have found himself in the same predicament?

[twosicklewhore.livejournal.com]

No one is BORN evil - no one is born good, either. Things, people and events influence them, and since Draco was most likely raised in a Dark and well, evil, environment (given the source...), it's no wonder he turned out the way he did. We must note, however, that he DID break-down and fail to kill Dumbledore in HBP. My question is, did those things happen because he is 'really good at heart' or because he's just a coward? Or perhaps just...immature?

Natalie // Ravenclaw

[bottledfizzyh2o.livejournal.com]

I disagree, I think some people can be born with a tendency to choose evil over good. Or rather, there are people who by nature do not feel the guilt associated with doing evil things such as murder. In the wizarding world, these people are the Death Eaters. They can kill because they have to or simply want to and not have a second thought about it. They're natural-born killers. Other people aren't born with this quality and would feel remorse. To me, that's a big difference between people who are born evil and those who are not.

Melissa, Gryffindor

[merewiper.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Draco is evil. Being evil requires using ones brains and it is painfully obvious that he doesn't. He just soaks up his father's beliefs without questioning them and throws them up at every occasion. If you asked him to elaborate he'd probably do a very good fish imitation and start throwing insults without making a point. In my opinion, Draco Malfoy is just a sheep.

bubblesl//Slytherin

(forgot to sign before)

total sheep

[ararejul.livejournal.com]

Hahahaha. okay. i actually agree. but i'm going to give you a little back up here.

Draco's in slytherin for a reason. We tell people during sorting all the time that slytherin does NOT equal evil. Slytherin's prime trait is ambition. I think that Draco Malfoy has a great amount of ambition toward his goal to be known and respected.

Draco is not in Ravenclaw because he really lacks any kind of intelligence. I don't think that he has ever demonstrated an affinity in any class (well possibly potions....but it's unclear who made the polyjuice potion).
Draco is not in Gryffindor because he lacks the courage to follow things through. He tried many different indirect ways to kill Harry, all backfiring. And when it came down to killing Dumbledore he faltered.
These are just two main points I'd like to express.

So yes, Malfoy is neither good nor evil. He is a sheep that tries to shed his skin but cannot find a way to do it. All he wants is to be known.

jul*gryffindor

Why Is It Either/Or?

[nelliewu.livejournal.com]

Draco is a selfish brat BECAUSE he is a product of his environment.

I believe that all children are born innocent, "good" if you will. And as we grow and mature, we assimilate information from our surrounding environment. Draco is a selfish brat because his father spoiled him and drummed it into his head that their family was better than others, namely half-bloods and muggle-born. And I'm sure with Lucius as his father, Draco's childhood was spent around people who had the same ideals and beliefs.

I keep thinking about the episodes on programs like Law & Order dealing with people who abuse others mentally, physically, and/or sexually. Statistics show that many abusers were abused themselves as children. That behavior was learned from their environment.

Of course, I'm not saying that an individual cannot break the cycle, come to realize that their are different viewpoints, ideals, beliefs outside of their environment. I'm saying in Malfoy's case, he didn't.

Was that coherent? :)

Nellie ~ Gryffindor

Re: Why Is It Either/Or?

[thespyglass.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I agree. This is especially true of the Draco we know from the earlier books, having known nothing but Death Eater parents and close relatives. To question and work against those kinds of influences you need some sort of catalyst and Draco had nothing.

The idea that we're born with a sense of 'right and wrong' is very simplistic. Who says protecting the weak - muggles - is right? Aren't Death Eaters simply advancing the species by putting magical people first? I don't agree with this, of course, but it's easy to see how someone who started out with this view-point and never heard the opposing argument - or had reason to come up with one himself - stayed stuck-in-his-ways.

On the other hand, his mother obviously cares about him, from what we see in HBP, so why did he not learn compassion from that? Could be that there was never any explicit affection, or that he never had his mother's love identified to him as such, and so never learned to extend it to other people.

The world-view Draco grew up with was extreme but it's served him well, as far as he sees fit to look. He's never struggled for anything and it's hard to see that as a bad thing when you're young. He never questioned anything because why should he? He didn't value questioning for its own sake - he aint a 'Claw! -

But now he's not young. He's been talking the talk for years when it comes to Voldemort and now he has to walk the walk. He's been so sheltered in some ways and so ill-equipped in others that he can't deal with real hardship.

What I want to know is how Draco got into the 'kill Dumbledore' scenario. Did he offer to do it or was he pushed? And if it was the latter, are we talking Voldemort, Snape, his father...? What he does in book seven will tell us how much he's willing to question his upbringing, defy his parents' world-view, whether he's beyond saving or if now he'd old enough to take a good look at his life, will he choose to change things?

All this makes me sound very sympathetic towards Draco, don't get me wrong. I hated him for five books but always saw him as a bit pathetic. Now his pathetic-ness has gotten him into some real trouble and it's hard not to feel a little sorry for him. I said "a little".

So Draco is both. He's a selfish brat and a product of his environment, but now he's becoming an adult - he's taken his sweet time about it - maybe he'll be less of either. After all, he's a Slytherin and they're not followers ;)


~ Anna, Ravenclaw

[-meow-mix-.livejournal.com]

At such a young age, a child is still growing and learning and is very impressionable. So, yes, I do think that, in a way, he's a producting of his upbringing. However, children know right from wrong, and using the excuse of 'environment' as a reason for his actions seems kinda ridiculous to me.

Fact is, after reading book 6, I almost felt sorry for him. He tries to place the bad-ass, but, deep down, he's a terrified child. He's been forced to make decisions that a child his age should never have to make. Yes, he was raised to hate and raised to do evil, but, deep down, he has a child's heart.

Although I dislike him, I still feel a bit sorry for him. If he had been raised differently, I'm sure that he would be an entirely different person.

Jenn ~ Gryffindor

[angeleyesjg24.livejournal.com]

Well, to a degree children know what is right and what is wrong. If they are taught "it is okay to hate Mudbloods, they're less than us" and that is all he ever hears, than we are wrong and he is right. If he is never exposed to these people or even sees them as people, how is he going to know that his perception is right. Yes, children do have some inherent knowledge or right and wrong, but moral values are not something I believe come instilled in children. If all Draco ever heard was how wonderful mudbloods were, he would likely belive that.

This, however, only justifies his early behavior. Once he got to Hogwarts and began to have interaction with people from all different backgrounds, it would have then become his responsibilty to change his outlook. However, hate is so strong that it can be perminately ingrained in people. Here's two real-life examples: Al Quieda and the Hitler Youth. Extreme examples, yes, but fitting nonetheless. Both groups indoctornate(d) these youth to the point that all they knew was the reality their parents or their government wanted them to believe. In George Orwell's 1984, the situation is much the same. Children are the easiest to influence and convince to believe something.

Anna M // Ravenclaw