DEBATE TIME

[debate-geeks.livejournal.com]

Alright, ladies and gents, it's now time for our July Debate!

This topic is interesting! Controversial! Emotion-packed! Really, really awesome! So, I hope you're all as excited as me.

Quick run-down of the rules:

1. For your comment to be counted and earn points, it must contain at least five sentences. And by five sentences, I mean five complete sentences.
2. You may debate any side you want. In fact, feel free to debate one side, then flop to the other, then flop right back. Whatever suits you.
3. This is a non-speculation debate. This subject in particular is bound to draw up some comments of "Well, i feel..". Let's not. You may use the point if you've got proof. (ie., point out when someone's actions were misconstrued to look one way, but were really another.. etc.) You don't, however, have to provide said proof at the time of the debate. And yes, I realize that some spec points will slip through, and that's fine. I just don't want the whole of your debate to be your personal opinions.
4. No arguing. Period.
5. You MUST sign all comments. An unsigned comment earns you no points. If you fail to sign it, delete the comment immediately and repost with your tag on it. Failure to do so means, once again, no points

If you've got any questions, please post them to my post below. Not this one. I will not be recieving the comments immediately, so it is likely that I will just plain not see your questions or concerns. Or, contact me on AIM at Mohawkalahka.

And now, on to the main event:

PROFESSOR SNAPE: Friend or Foe?

In the Potterverse, some characters are good. Some characters are bad. There is a good amount of black and white when it comes to one's alignment. But in the same respects, grey areas exist. An example of such would be Professor Snape, who has been known to flirt the line quite a bit- only to come out clean.
Your job is to come to a strong and swift conclusion and answer the age-old question:
Is Professor Snape our friend or foe?

Please Note: Chances of HBP storyline being mentioned here are extremely high. Please proceed with caution if you do not wish to be spoiled.

Comments

[loved-gamgee.livejournal.com]

up till now i believed him a friend, if only because Dumbledore trusted him. but since HBP, my views have changed for the following:
- he was a double/triple/whatever agent but both sides knew he was a mole for the other side, which to me defeats the purpose. this makes sense in my head, it's just getting it down that makes it hard. if you are being a mole you don't let both sides know you're doing it.
- he wouldn't have made the unbreakable promise if he didn't think that he might have to kill Dumbledore or risk dying himself. if he were actually true to Dumbledore, he would have scarifised himself. is having him working with Voldermort so important to risk loosing the only wizard who Voldemort ever feared?

those are the two strongest arguements i have at the moment.

Jill//Hufflepuff

[sparkofmyteens.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, I read an essay on my friendslist recently about the Unbreakable Vow proposing that Snape had assumed that Dumbledore would remove him from that knd of situation. There is a scene where Hagrid overhears Snape and Dumbledore arguing (though I can't recall the exact exchange at the moment) and one interpretation suggests that perhaps Snape was arguing about why Dumbledore wouldn't just have taken care of the Malfoy problem to begin with.

Dumbledore's flaw in this book is shown to be that he trusts people too much -- Snape, for believing him just because he said 'Oh I'm sorry', and Draco, for not believing he would actually kill. Assuming Draco would be too weak to kill him and not taking care of the problem (somehow) before it reached critical mass so to speak, was in the end his undoing. Snape didn't have a choice in taking the vow and could have assumed that if he did, Dumbledore would take him out of danger (instead of not taking it and putting him at the mercy of Voldemort -and- a woman scorned).

When Dumbledore didn't do that, Snape was -bound- to kill Dumbledore, or die and leave Draco at the mercy of whoever else did it. So, when both of them fled, it was entirely possible that they realized the were fugitives -- Snape from the Wizarding World, Draco from Voldemort for failing.

Snape's definitely still in the grey for me.

-- Cordi/Ravenclaw

[memyselfandi87.livejournal.com]

I believe Professor Snape is a friend. That being said, I'm going to argue my point with something I posted in hptheories yesterday (some people may have seen it already, in other words). ;)

I noticed that in Chapter 8 of HBP, Professor Snape was able to intercept Tonks' patronus that she meant for Hagrid to recieve. JKR said (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_poll.cfm) that members of the Order communicate by way of their patronuses. JKR said that one of the benefits of this way of communication is that it's an "anti-Dark Arts device" and because of that, dark wizards cannot interfere with them. The fact that Snape was able to "take" the patronus, especially when it wasn't meant for him should mean that he isn't as dark a wizard we might think he is. Additionaly, he said her patronus changed... that means that he's used this way of communication at least a few times. ;)

Kristina//Hufflepuff

[kaleidoruby.livejournal.com]

That's a really good theory, I didn't even think of that one! I think you're on to something there.

Carrie - Gryffindor

[kaleidoruby.livejournal.com]

Oooh I like this topic. It's only been on my mind since I read the book, haha. Anyway, I don't think it's a matter of being strictly one side. One of the things I've always liked about Snape is that he's a deeper character. He's not black, he's not white, he's shades of grey.

My big point, is that he didn't actually intend to hurt Harry as he was leaving. He could have kidnapped him and taken him right to Voldemort then and there. He didn't. He didn't try to curse Harry (until he was called a coward) - he just countered them. Not to mention the line (I don't have the book with me so I'm paraphrasing) where he tells him to keep his mouth closed (and something about his mind too), which is exactly what he's been trying to tell him.

Dumbledore would not plead for his life. He is not afraid to die, and the books have stated it before. So, why is he pleading? There has to be much more to it than we're being told. He trusted him implicity - while he may be too trusting, he had to have reasons, when there were so many times when Snape could have betrayed him. Snape and Dumbledore could have planned it - the argument they had in HBP could be used as proof for that.

On the other hand, he could have been pleading for Snape to save Malfoy from going the sane road as his father. He could have been pleading with him to not be a murderer himself. Maybe he wanted to save Snape from being even more like Voldemort than he already is, and he killed Dumbledore because he's just a big ol' jerk. But I'm leaning more toward the Snape is good theory.

Carrie - Gryffindor

[jennomac.livejournal.com]

This is so very hard for me to say. I want so badly to believe that Snape is truly good but at the same time, I can think nothing but "EVIL!"

However, I think he's a Friend. Dumbledore would not have risked EVERYTHING if he did not 100% trust this man. Dumbledore, on repeated occasions has ALWAYS made it be known that his full confidence is in Severus. Could it have been an old fool's mistake? Of course! But, I think something as important as this, Dumbledore knew what he was doing. Dumbledore was willing to die for the good side, he would never PLEAD for his life, he is not afraid of death. So, when he was pleading with Snape, I don't know what he was pleading for but it wasn't for his life. Dumbledore, I believe, died for the Order. Snape killed for the Order. Snape is trustworthy.

orrr...I could be completely wrong and Snape is just damn evil. No, no no, that's to obvious for JKR..Snape is good...I think.

Jenn//Hufflepuff

[terig.livejournal.com]

I have to concur with you here. There is no way that if Dumbledore was in anyway doubtful of Snape that he would have put so much trust in the man. That is just too much of a risk.

Something tells me not only was Snape set up by Voldemort through Narcissa, but Dumbledore ended up using it to the advantage of the Order. Snape is definitely a wildcard. It certainly will be interesting to see how this all plays out. :)

Teri//Ravenclaw

[yaycoffee.livejournal.com]

Friend, er, mostly.

Snape remained, until the end, highly trusted by Dumbledore. Dumbledore is/was regarded as one of the wisest and most well respected wizards alive, therefore his opinion and judgment is very significant. Snape has protected Harry in a life and death situation (1st Quidditch Match) despite the grudge he holds against him. Even after killing Dumbledore, and when Snape is fleeing the battle while Harry is throwing a wide variety of curses his way, Snape does NOT attack--he merely blocks. The very last thing we see Snape do is to continue to teach and advise Harry--telling him to keep his mind shut. While Snape is not pleasant, ultimately, he is working for the right side.

YayCoffee//Gryffindor

[mandagemini.livejournal.com]

Professor Snape is a friend. He hasn't killed Harry, yet. Why? Because he owes his life to James. I think he puts a lot of importance on this debt and on protecting Harry. He cannot repay the debt if he is in a position that could bring harm to Harry, despite his intense dislike for him. Furthermore, he's saved Harry more than enough times to repay that debt on any normal person's terms, yet he continues to aid Harry.

Manda, Slytherin

[terig.livejournal.com]

I will argue on the position that Severus Snape is a friend, not a foe. For me the key was when Snape and Harry were duking it out after Dumbledore was killed. Snape continously parried off Harry's spells and pretty much never struck back AND even told Harry how he should be casting them (wordlessly). While he did shout out that Harry was meant for Voldemort to deal with, as he and the Death Eaters made their escape, he didn't even do anything to seriously disable Harry or hurt him, even though Harry was bent on confronting Snape and could have had a lucky strike. This tells me this was Snape's way of trying to tell Harry he hadn't exactly betrayed the Order, or Dumbledore's trust, but of course, Harry was too blinded by his own hate and distrust of Snape to clue in.

Teri//Ravenclaw

[raven-annabelle.livejournal.com]

Foe

The reason I picked this is because of Spinner's End. When Snape was talking to Bellatrix he mentioned Dumbledore's greatest weakness. A few chapters later, Dumbledore said that he has made mistakes. I think that if Dumbledore dies, then it's because of his greatest weakness. Plus Snape is extremely intelligent, and super awesome at Legilimens. It fits to me, that he'd figure out the only way to defeat Dumbledore, by taking advantage of his trusting manner.

Sarah // Ravenclaw

[yaycoffee.livejournal.com]

But, is death a weakness in the Potterverse? We know that the drive to evade death is what turned Tom Riddle into Lord Voldemort. We know that Dumbledore himself considered death to be the "next great adventure." Dumbledore's attitude toward death is not one of someone who sees it as weakness or the greatest thing to lose. He even tells Voldemort during their duel in OotP that there are worse things than death.

And, Snape, as a master Legilimens is formidable, yes, but Dumbledore is also considered a master at the same craft. Dumbledore has over a century more magical expertise than Severus Snape. I do not believe that even Snape would be so foolish as to think that he could best Albus Dumbledore at any game of wits or magic.

YayCoffee//Gryffindor

[mandagemini.livejournal.com]

Switching sides because the rules say I can.

Professor Snape is the enemy. He Avada Kedavra'd Dumbledore. There have got to be plenty of ways of faking death. Why didn't Snape "help" Draco by making a potion that would make Dumbledore appear dead and having Draco say the incantation? That way, it would have looked like Dumbledore had died and Draco had killed him? Dumbledore could have gone into hiding or something. Instead, Snape chose to really use the curse on him, showing that he is actually working for Voldemort.

OR he could have used the Polyjuice Potion and had the real Dumbledore go into hiding and have Draco kill an imposter. Once again, though, he decided to use Avada Kedavra instead. We know Snape is clever enough, particularly regarding potions. By chosing to use AK, he showed his "true colors." so to speak.

Manda, Slytherin

[memyselfandi87.livejournal.com]

I don't think it could be possible for Dumbledore to fake his death without making tons of trouble for Snape and Draco.

As it has been said many times before, both Snape and Voldemort are skilled Legilimens. If they had faked Dumbledore's death, then they would have been found out either by Voldemort being a Legilimens, or by Dumbledore's death having all those witnesses.

That being said, I believe that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow, and that he sacrificed himself to the cause. If Dumbledore hadn't died, then both Snape and Draco would have been killed.

I've also seen this before... remember how Harry was disgusted about giving Dumbledore the potion? I remember Snape having a look of disgust on his face before he Avada Kedavra-ed Dumbledore. Maybe he was disgusted because he was stuck doing something he didn't want to do.

Kristina//Hufflepuff

[blackisslimming.livejournal.com]

Snape is a friend, I would bet my life on it. In the beginning of the book [Spinner's End] we read about Snape taking part in the Unbreakable Vow wiht Narcissa. At that very moment [whether or not we understood it at the time] Dumbledore had to die. If Draco didnt kill him, Snape would have to. Later on in the book, it mentions Snape and Dumbledore having a heated discussion containing sentences from Snape such as "I wont do this." "No" "I cant do that, I made a mistake." We believe that as soon as Snape made the Vow, he told Dumbledore. Dumbledore gave Harry the lessons so that Harry could/know how to kill Voldemort once Dumbledore was gone. Right before Dumbledore dies, the book says that Dumbledore is "pleading" with Snape. But if you look closely, it seems that Dumbledore is reminding Snape that he must do it. Finally, in the 2nd to last chapter Harry kept calling Snape a coward, and Snape was TRULY hurt. I submit that Snape was so hurt because he just did the bravest thing any character has had to do so far. In killing Dumbledore, he saved Draco and secured his spot as a spy with Voldemort.


Presence//Ravenclaw

[http://users.livejournal.com/_squeaky_/]

I agree with you! Snape is a Friend! Draco is not a killer, he was only going to kill to save his family... Snape killed Dumbledore to save Draco from having completely failed his mission and kept him from being a murderer. if he had not killed Dumbledore, He would have been killed by the other death-eaters there and then the order would have no spy!
Another reason i feel he is a friend is after he saves Harry during his first Quidditch match, he continues to save him. Saving his life once should have paid off the life debt he feels he owes to James. He continues to save Harry so i feel he is working for the Order, otherwise, wouldnt he have just let him die? it would have been helpful to Voldemort! wouldnt it??
Lastly, if Snape really was a foe, why would he continue to help and teach Harry? Harry was throwing curse after curse at him and yet all he did was sheild himself. Again, why, if he was a foe, didnt he attack back, why didnt he kill/weaken Harry?

~Toni~Gryffindor

[ponkie.livejournal.com]

Professor Snape is a friend.

Not to underestimate Snape - but I highly doubt that Dumbledore could be fooled by him. Dumbledore's been considered to be the greatest wizard of modern times (as said on the chocoloate frog) - how could he be so easily fooled? We've learned that both are skilled in Occlumens/Legilimency - therefore they can communicate without speaking. In the scene where Snape kills Dumbledore there is a distinct pause and then Dumbledore says "Severus, please..."

Please what? Is Dumbledore the type of man to beg for life/mercy/etc? Did he realize he was already going to die because of the liquid he drank earlier in the cave? and if so isn't one death better than two (because Snape would die if he didn't kill him)? We can't know for certain - but I would put money on Dumbledore knowing that he was going to die, and with Snape commiting the murder it keeps Draco from becoming a murderer & Snape doesn't die & Snape can still spy on the Death Eaters. I firmly believe Dumbledore made this decision.

Throughout the series there have been many instences where Snape has in fact saved Harry's life. While he tells Narcissa that he does this to stay on Dumbledore's good side there were also many instances where he could have hurt Harry without the Headmaster knowing.

Final reason Snape is a friend is because Dumbledore trusted him. That should be good enough for all of us.

Ponks | Hufflepuff

[enchantedblood.livejournal.com]

I believe Severus Snape is indeed a friend. He has had too many oppurtunities to kill Harry, and hasn't, and yet he blatently kills Dumbledore? People say, like "he was under oath, he needed to do it blah blah blah" but as he was escaping and seeing Harry out there, why didn't he quickly shoot an Avada Kedevra in Harry's direction? Why has Snape been giving Harry the occumency(sp?) lessons, openly, without trying to trick Harry into giving him all of his secrets? Because he is a friend. He is helping Harry protect his plans and thoughts from Voldemort, if he was a FOE he wouldn't do that. I believe he only killed Dumbledore under the oath. What would you do, if you were faced with three wizards/witches (including Peter), who wanted you to make a blood oath for Voldemort? You would make the oath, for fear of them killing you obviously. It had to be done, no matter what, and Snape knew that. Besides all of this, I have absolute faith in Dumbledore. I think he knows what is what, and knows that Snape is definitely a friend, and not a foe.



JESSICA - HUFFLEPUFF

[kauricat.livejournal.com]

I believe that Snape is still working on the side of light and that he will be exonerated in the next book. As Teri states above my comment, Severus had many chances to stop Harry. He could have cast any number of spells that would have stopped Harry in his tracks, but he never did. He simply parried Harry's attacks and even expressed dismay when someone else tried to take Harry out. He did cover it well (saying that Harry was for Voldemort), but someone in Snape's position would have to be able to pull reasons like that out in order to maintain his cover.

I think the look that Dumbledore and Snape shared just prior to the final spell was more significant than a lot of people are interpreting it to be. Dumbledore and Snape might have been communicating via leglimency during that look, also. Dumbledore might have been giving Severus very specific instructions and Severus may have followed those instructions to the letter.

Regardless of whether the leglimency took place or not, I think that Dumbledore, rather than pleading for his life, was asking Severus to finish it, and I think Severus's look of disgust and hatred was because he didn't want to do it, and he knew that he had to.

Also, there was a LOT of reference to silent magic in this book. What if Snape said the words for an unforgivable, but actually cast something else silently instead? Nah, I don't really believe that either. But it popped into my head the other day and I thought it was interesting.

Kauri~Ravenclaw

[rizzyr.livejournal.com]

I really like your last point, even if you might not believe it. JKR never puts things in the book that don't mean SOMETHING. You're definitely right that silent magic was a big theme in this book, and I don't see it as just being another random lesson for the kids to learn. It could be one of those clues that something isn't just what it seems. Snape could have said one spell and actually cast another spell. The question then, is: Can one *say* the words to a spell and not cast it? We know from book 5 that one has to really *want* to harm another to cast an Unforgivable. If Snape didn't really want to kill Dumbledore, then would it be possible for him to cast another spell that would actually work?

Interesting...

Steph/Hufflepuff

[mellarks.livejournal.com]

Friend. After all, Dumbldore trusted him, didn’t he? Dumbledore may be inclined to believe the best in every person, but I don’t think he could have been fooled for that long.

As for Snape killing Dumbledore? I firmly believe that was a plan that they had formed. Snape had a promise to keep (he knew right from the beginning Draco would be unable to carry out his duty) and Dumbledore NEEDED to die to allow Harry to get the strength to grow up and not rely on him for everything. In each book, Dumbledore somehow saved him, and his death was a way for him to allow Harry to grow up and move on. For example.

In Chamber of Secrets: Fawkes appears with the Sorting Hat. Fawkes is Dumbledore’s pet (with healing tears, which cured Harry’s basilisk wound), and the Sorting Hat, of course, is a very important thing from Hogwarts history. Dumbledore HAD to have known Harry would be able to pull the sword out of the hat. Why else would Fawkes fly down there with it?

Prisoner of Azkaban: Suggests Harry and Hermione use the Time-Turner to change Buckbeak’s death/Sirius’ execution. I imagine they’d be too panicky to think of it on their own.

Goblet of Fire: Speaks out on Voldemort’s return, and Cedric’s death. He (besides Harry’s friends) are the only ones to believe the story. It does get out into public, though. The beginning of the set up for…

Order of the Phoenix: Saves Harry’s ass in the Department of Mysteries. ‘Nuff said.

And, finally, in this book, he does the ultimate thing: Sacrifices himself for Harry and the lives of others.

His death was necessary to prepare Harry for the reality of fighting Voldemort. It WILL be Harry and Voldemort, probably with no outside help. Seeing Dumbledore die would push Harry forward a bit and grow up.

Snape is skilled in Occulmency, we all know this. In the beginning of HBP, he talks to Bellatrix of his questioning with the Dark Lord. It’s highly possibly that he employed his skills to help him get through it with little to no suspicion. He knows both Dark and ‘good’ magic, so he has a oneup on Voldemort.

As for him being evil? He HAS saved Harry numerous times in the past, despite grudges he held from his childhood. If he were truly evil, despite any other excuses he makes, he would take full advantage in seeing the son of his greatest rival. Still, though. Perhaps he would like to see him die by the same person who killed his parents? We may never know.

Snape’s an amazingly multi-dimensional character, once you see past the biased leader of Slytherin House and the Potions Master. He apparently had a tough time while at Hogwarts, which would eventually lead to his following of the Dark Lord. But, Dumbledore’s ALWAYS been there for him, so I cannot see him betraying Dumbledore for long.

Snape’s done many, many horrible things…but betraying the greatest wizard of all time? One who took it upon himself to trust, hire, and treat a former Death Eater like an equal? I doubt he could forget that and completely betray him.

When he does the spell, it says Dumbledore PLEADED with him. Dumbledore knew he was going to die, SNAPE knew Dumbledore was going to die. Why not kill two birds with one stone (er…no pun intented)? Snape could keep his promise to Narcissa and Dumbledore would get his death.

Another point? Why would Snape even MAKE the promise with Narcissa if he were truly evil? Someone that evil would shrug off such a request, and tell the mother of a child who was going to DIE, that she should let her son fend for herself. ‘Least that’s my opinion.

So. Snape. He fits the description of a Slytherin. Cunning, manipulative, sly…but loyal to his cause, and that cause is to help bring down the Dark Lord.


Gabby//Ravenclaw

[mandagemini.livejournal.com]

Snape’s done many, many horrible things…but betraying the greatest wizard of all time? One who took it upon himself to trust, hire, and treat a former Death Eater like an equal? I doubt he could forget that and completely betray him.

That's a great point, I think. We've already seen that Snape is determined to repay debts in the case of Harry and James. As such, it's very likely he would feel the same devotion and gratitude toward Dumbledore for taking him in. He seems to have an oddly Hufflepuff sense of fairness to him. If someone does something nice to him, he will repay it in due time. From the minute Harry saw him, though, Harry suspected him, and Snape would thus feel no need to be nice back to him. However, the thought of his debt to James was still in his mind, and so he tolerated Harry.

Manda, Slytherin

Warning: Spoilers!

[rushofsilence.livejournal.com]

[voirs.livejournal.com]

[lidane.livejournal.com]

He's a friend, absolutely. I strongly believe this, and the evidence is there in Chapter 2.

As [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] points out here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/amanuensis1/107445.html#cutid1), the Spinner's End chapter in the book would not exist if Severus was a loyal Death Eater. Its only narrative purpose in the story is to show the absolute web of lies and deceit that he has had to spin in order to maintain a facade with both Voldemort and the Death Eaters. his spinning ends, because he finally has to cast his lot, but only out of neccessity rather than actual belief.

Why would JKR suddenly foreshadow the major plot point of the story to THAT degree when she hasn't before? What purpose would that serve, except to make the ultimate moment LESS dramatic, and not more powerful, particularly if Snape was actually evil? It makes no sense. The book would be weaker if what we saw was the literal truth on Snape's part.

Everything in Spinner's End feels too pat, and too convenient for Snape to be loyal to Voldemort. He's merely telling Narcissa and Bellatrix what they want to hear. And this part, during the making of the Vow, adds to that:

"And should it prove neccessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"

There was a moment's silence. Bellatrix watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide.

"I will," said Snape.

Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red in the blaze of a third tongue of flame, which shot from the wand, twisted with the others, and bound itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake. (US hardcover edition, pages 36-37)

That bit shows two things, IMO-- First, Snape is uncomfortable with the idea of having to kill Dumbledore (as evidenced by the twitch of his hand, and the brief moment before he answers), and second, his agreeing to the third stipulation, which is to act if Draco fails, is more for Bellatrix than it is for anyone else. He finally convinces her, by agreeing to the task, that he's loyal to Voldemort, because what traitor to the Dark Lord would accept *those* terms?

She's questioned his motives the entire chapter. How else to finally make her "see" that he's "loyal" than to agree to fulfill Draco's assignment if he fails? And what else could that assignment be but to kill someone? The Vow wouldn't exist at all if Draco's assignment was anything less than murder.

It's all there, really. At least I believe so. :)

~~Tish, Ravenclaw

[arellyn.livejournal.com]

Friend.

Snape made the vow with Narcissa. As Draco's Head of House and a teacher's pet of his, at least somewhat, Snape would be in the best position on those adults at Hogwarts to determine what the boy is really capable of, and what he was not. He would then have known what Narcissa would be asking, and what the end result would most likely be. And thereby what the vow would force him to do.

Also, in terms of a literary device on its own, making Snape evil makes very little sense, especially with JKR's penchant for the twist (See the end of PoA for that example, or really many of the books). It doesn't particularly make sense to have snape be evil at this point. She's spent years/books building up the relationship of Harry and Snape, and Snape's trustworthyness. To have him suddenly go to the dark side now would cause millions of fans as well as harry and his friends to scream 'I knew it, hah!'. We know that JKR doesn't like to be obvious, especially in foreshadowing events. So it's very likely that more surprises await, and everything is not as it seems. We've never been given a main enemy of a book (besides voldemort) before one begins, and logic says that with the relationship between harry and snape, if snape were to be evil, he would be the focus, aside from voldemort, of the next book. Which, as I said, is unlikely.

Plus, Snape has had that problem with James having saved his life. Yes, Snape has helped Harry, but that is a guilt trip that has lasted for years and years, and is likely not to be easily forgotten by someone who has carried it this long.

Just my two of about fifty cents.

Lauren ** Ravenclaw

[leggyslove.livejournal.com]

As much as I'm angry with Snape, I believe that he is still a friend.

When Bellatrix and Narcissa visited Snape in chapter two, they didn't trust him and with good reason, he's been at Hogwarts this whole time. Snape had to convince the two that he was on their side, otherwise they could easily go tell Voldemort or others that he wasn't the real deal.

Also, don't forget that Wormtongue was at his place. He certainly cannot have Voldemorts right hand man hear anything that could be a threat to himself or Dumbledore.

He seemed hesitant to make the Vow with Narcissa, but I believe he had no choice. As stated above, he couldn't let them believe that that he was really with Dumbledore.

What was Dumbledore and Snape arguing about? They don't seem the type to argue, especially when Snape really does owe so much to Dumbledore. Dumbledore could be making him keep to his vow. Dumbledore could have sacrificed himself so Snape could pretend that he is now with Voldemort and get a better shot at him.

And why hadn't Snape tried to kill Harry before? You would think that after the events of GOF that Voldemort would want Harry destroyed at any means. Snape had plenty of chances to do it, even if it was under Dumbledore's nose. When he told the Death Eaters not to kill Harry, that seemed a bit odd. We know that Voldemort wants Harry, but you would think that anyway to get him out of the picture would be a good thing.

"Severus, please..."

Dumbledore doesn't seem the type of person to plead for his life, he seems the type of person to accept when his time has come. Dumbledore could very well be pleading with Severus to go through with the plan or whatever they have come up with.

With all the revelations of Horcruxes in this book there very may well be something Dumbledore is hiding. ;)

So yes, I believe that Snape was forced into something he didn't want to do.

Bonnie // Ravenclaw

[cherrysk8fan.livejournal.com]

Somehow I just knew this would come up as the debate topic...

As furiously as I would like to say "foe", and as much as that was my first thought after finishing HBP, upon reflection, I feel that Snape is still a friend. There was definitely more going on under the surface of what Harry [and by extension, we] could see in that scene. Beyond the simple fact that Dumbledore trusted him (which should be enough for all of us, I suppose), Snape has had a thousand occasions to cause harm to Harry or Dumbledore or any other member of the "light" side and hadn't done so. (This all feels like a reiteration of others' opinions though, so I'll try to move on.)

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Dumbledore knew, at the very least, that Snape would no longer be teaching at Hogwarts at the end of the term: Dumbledore gave Snape the DADA job, which we now know to actually be cursed since Dumbledore refused the position to Voldemort. As such, it could possibly be assumed that Dumbledore [possibly Snape as well, but not necessarily] knew that this would be Snape's last year teaching as of the time he [Dumbledore] went to Privet Drive to pick up Harry and then to recruit Slughorn, which was also near the time Snape made the Vow to Narcissa. One could assume that, if Snape was indeed still on Dumbledore's side, he would have told Dumbledore of the Vow and of Malfoy's mission, and from there, Dumbledore would have formulated a plan accordingly: a way to protect his students and help maintain Snape's cover...and if Voldemort did indeed curse the DADA position, he also would know that Snape could only last a year in that position, so he would expect Snape to return to being "fully" in his service.


Caitlyn//Ravenclaw
[hoping this makes sense, because I need sleep now]

[shadowkitten87.livejournal.com]

I believe Snape is a friend. This is VERY grey area, as has been said, and we won't know for sure until book 7. However, judging on JKR's style of writing, I find it hard to believe that she would introduce a character solely for us to hate (that's what Umbridge is for), then to sympathise with (remember in book 5, during one of the Occlumency lessons, Harry accidently went into Snape's mind and saw, what I interpret as, Snape's mother being yelled at by his father while he huddled in a corner- "a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner."), then to hate him again. It doesn't seem like her style to me.

Also, I have to take in mind that perhaps Dumbledore is not above and on top of everything. Perhaps Snape knows something from his time with the Death Eater's that he could not tell Dumbledore for some reason, and started making his own plans from then on for the sake of good. As I said, we can never know, at least not until book 7 comes out. Until then, I refuse to set anything in stone.

[ledbylove.livejournal.com]

I have never hated Snape more. It's irrational, I know, but I don't even care if Dumbledore wanted him to kill him. I don't care if there was some secret plan. As of right now, he killed my Dumbledore and I am heartbroken and furious over it.

Let's face it, Snape has never truly been the friend. He's made many a snide remark to even Dumbledore and he's gone out of his way to make Harry miserable. Harry inherited his father's grudge with Snape because Snape made it so. Sirius is dead, in part, because he stopped teaching Harry occlumency. One wonders how hard he even really tried.

Even if he isn't evil, perse, I still cannot see Snape as a friend.

[arellyn.livejournal.com]

Loving that point, since it's so much of how I feel about it.

Mind you, as a character I still love him, much as I love Umbridge. In a completely literary device kind of a way. As characters in the book I want to smash the daylights out of them both. But in that way, it make me love characters like that more, because they do instill that inherent passion in the reader.

Lauren ** Ravenclaw

Oh, and go back and sign your post ;P

[zillah-mahala.livejournal.com]

As much as I dislike Snape, I believe him a friend. We know there's some decency in him - he repaid his dept to James via aiding his son in a potentially life-threatening situation, as seen in the PS/SS Quidditch match. If he was truly the hateful, spiteful creature he often seems, he wouldn't have felt the need to repay anything.

I also think the fact that he hesitates at some rather pivotal points during HBP may lend to this argument. Either he is unaware of what Draco's task is during 'Spinner's End', and hesitates a moment because he doesn't know what he's agreeing to, or he is well aware of what the task is and has to weigh up the situation. I also imagine that this is what he and Dumbledore are arguing about later - if he truly was a foe, certainly he would keep such things to himself?

When Harry and Dumbledore return from the cave, Dumbledore asks for Snape. Not Madam Pompfrey, not Slughorn - the current potions master. Snape. A lot of people (not necessarily here) have said that Dumbledore knew he was dying, or going to.. At least this way it wouldn't have been quite the spectacle, eh? But alas, it didn't end there.. but it was Snape. Snape, not Draco - Dumbledore wouldn't have wanted that from one so young. Humm..

I think Snape is somewhat aware of the fact that Harry is the one that has to end this. If it were Dumbledore, surely it would have been done by now? In which case, it probably seems best to have someone aware of plans on the other side.. and that, unfortunately, came with a great sacrifice. Surely Snape wouldn't be so incensed with Harry calling him a coward if what he had done.. hadn't had an effect on him?

Hmm.. I don't think I'll ever get sick of discussing this topic. So expect me back. ;)

Sara//Ravenclaw

[cookieminwaggle.livejournal.com]

This is a tricky subject. I think im just going to ramble on and on about what i think. First off, I think maybe Snape has been having his own issues of whether he is good or bad. For instance in the beginning of all this when he hears the prophecy and all that he is a death eater. But then do we find out why he decides to go to "the good side". nothign really justifiable to me why he would do that. So perhaps he has been evil from the beginning but saved his own ass when Voldemort wasnt in power and just kept his job as Potions master at hogwarts. like he said because it was a stable job and all that jazz. its possible that when voldemort came back he had a hard time figuring out where he stands. agreeing to spy for both of them and then deciding later.

what i wonder is, if he is a spy for each of them, how come he has not given either side for information? i mean he knows just about everything going on in the order of the pheonix and could give voldemort some really valueable information. and on the other side im sure he could have given dumbledore some information as well. i dont see that him being a spy has helped either side. that we have seen so far.

maybe he's just trying to stay good on both sides so he can side with whichever side wins this war. haha sounds smart to me.

Cookie/Hufflepuff

[jmpovrthemoon23.livejournal.com]

Ever since book one when Dumbledore assured Harry that he had very good reasons to trust Snape, I have been throughly convinced that Snape was indeed, a really big jerk, but definitely working for the "good" side. However, since reading HBP and also looking at some interviews Jo has given, I am more and more convinced that I was wrong to trust him. I have heard all the theories about Snape and Dumbledore making an agreement that Snape would kill Dumbledore, but I am unconvinced that this is what happened for a few reasons.

1.) A lot of people seem to think that this agreement was made so that Snape could become one of Voldemort's most prized and trusted supporters thus being able to learn secrets from Voldemort that would ultimately help defeat him. This is a good theory until you consider the fact that if an agreement was indeed made between Snape and Dumbledore, they seem to be the only two people who knew about it. So even if killing Dumbledore put Snape closer to Voldemort, I don't see what good it would do as Dumbledore is now dead, and no one in the Order is ever going to believe Snape that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him. So learning Voldemort's secrets does absolutely no good.

2.) In Jo's Mugglenet/Leaky interview, she says some very interesting things about Dumbledore, the most important being that having great intelligence does not guard someone from making emotional mistakes. She even says that Dumbledore is particularly prone to emotional mistakes because he has no equal, no one to confide in. And we all know that Dumbledore tends to place insane amounts of trust in people who are often....erm....suspicious. So I think it's safe to say that it's very possible for Dumbledore to make a mistake as huge as this.

3.) It is very much in the style of Jo's writing to keep bringing up things that come into larger play later in the books. How often has she brought up the question of Snape's loyalty? Oh yes, that's right. Every book.

4.) And last of all, I'm just guessing on this. But we learned in book 5 that to perform an Unforgivable Curse you have to mean it. So, if Snape really didn't want to kill Dumbledore, I think it's possible that he may not have been able to perform the killing curse.

Thus, I conclude that Snape is a foe.

Christin//Gryffindor

[lidane.livejournal.com]

We also learned in HBP about silent magic. Why bring that subject into play if it didn't have something to do with the events in the book?

With Dumbledore already dying, since he'd been slowly fading throught the entire book, and him at the top of a large tower, fading in and out of consciousness the entire time as he stalled for time by talking to Draco until Snape got there, killing Albus wouldn't have taken an Unforgivable. It would have taken any simple spell just to send him flying over the ledge.

And since when did the AK send people flying backwards? I seem to recall Cedric instantly falling over dead when it was cast on him in GoF, yet here, Dumbledore flies up and back? That doesn't make sense. Unless another spell was cast silently, and the AK was cast for show.

I don't think that idea is all that far fetched, really.

~~Tish, Ravenclaw